Israel and Iran

[xenophon]

You must be loving it over there, walking among the disdained and trying to blend in!
Clearly what is needed on our planet is a World governing body that makes sure all societies behave as we decide is correct, and lead by a single constitutional rule.
Hitler was rig..... oops!

Surely you must be right to curl your lip at them, & most of Africa, & Mohammed knows where else.
So, support Israel's right to start the war to end all f***ing wars then. It's inevitable anyway so let's get it on.

I am sure you have made good valid points about human rights violations, but how do you propose to counteract them without violating human rights?

'Human rights' yeah, ok, that's a good one. Jeremy Bentham, a far smarter man than you or me described the idea of 'natural laws and rights' as "nonsense on stilts". 'Rights' are meaningless without laws, and laws are useless without force to back them up. 'Rights' are an abstract concept, found nowhere in nature but written up by whoever is holding the reigns of power at any given time and place on the planet.

The Man decides what your rights are, and what punishment you get for 'violating' those 'rights' - whether it's carpet bombing, the gas chamber, or a parking ticket - history bears that out. The Man might be Genghis Khan, or he might be Nelson Mandela, either way your 'rights' are going to vary considerably under regimes governed by people of either ilk. Think about it.

As for the accusation of being Hitleresque - I have formed an opinion, possibly unique among most posters on this forum full of f***ing whoppers, which has come from direct exposure, over a good few years, to the subject I am talking about - in this case the state of many Islamic/Arab countries.

I see people as individuals, and treat them on an individual basis with interpersonal interaction, regardless of their creed or background. That includes the many muslim friends I have in the above countries. That doesn't mean I like the culture they come from, or their social habits/political views, which are formed by a strict, dogged submission (which is what 'Islam' transliterates as) to a worldview I happen to find counterproductive to normal human relations. Islam sucks, period.

 

[User removed 4]

'Human rights' yeah, ok, that's a good one. Jeremy Bentham, a far smarter man than you or me described the idea of 'natural laws and rights' as "nonsense on stilts". 'Rights' are meaningless without laws, and laws are useless without force to back them up. 'Rights' are an abstract concept, found nowhere in nature but written up by whoever is holding the reigns of power at any given time and place on the planet.

The Man decides what your rights are, and what punishment you get for 'violating' those 'rights' - whether it's carpet bombing, the gas chamber, or a parking ticket - history bears that out. The Man might be Genghis Khan, or he might be Nelson Mandela, either way your 'rights' are going to vary considerably under regimes governed by people of either ilk. Think about it.

As for the accusation of being Hitleresque - I have formed an opinion, possibly unique among most posters on this forum full of f***ing whoppers, which has come from direct exposure, over a good few years, to the subject I am talking about - in this case the state of many Islamic/Arab countries.

I see people as individuals, and treat them on an individual basis with interpersonal interaction, regardless of their creed or background. That includes the many muslim friends I have in the above countries. That doesn't mean I like the culture they come from, or their social habits/political views, which are formed by a strict, dogged submission (which is what 'Islam' transliterates as) to a worldview I happen to find counterproductive to normal human relations. Islam sucks, period.

So, mister f***ing educated and circumspect, I have formed an initial and personal opinion of you as an individual from my brief interchange with you on this very forum, and going by this alone, my opinion is that you are a cock holster of the highest order.

Good day Sir.

 

[Twizzle]

'Human rights' yeah, ok, that's a good one. Jeremy Bentham, a far smarter man than you or me described the idea of 'natural laws and rights' as "nonsense on stilts". 'Rights' are meaningless without laws, and laws are useless without force to back them up. 'Rights' are an abstract concept, found nowhere in nature but written up by whoever is holding the reigns of power at any given time and place on the planet.

The Man decides what your rights are, and what punishment you get for 'violating' those 'rights' - whether it's carpet bombing, the gas chamber, or a parking ticket - history bears that out. The Man might be Genghis Khan, or he might be Nelson Mandela, either way your 'rights' are going to vary considerably under regimes governed by people of either ilk. Think about it.

As for the accusation of being Hitleresque - I have formed an opinion, possibly unique among most posters on this forum full of f***ing whoppers, which has come from direct exposure, over a good few years, to the subject I am talking about - in this case the state of many Islamic/Arab countries.

I see people as individuals, and treat them on an individual basis with interpersonal interaction, regardless of their creed or background. That includes the many muslim friends I have in the above countries. That doesn't mean I like the culture they come from, or their social habits/political views, which are formed by a strict, dogged submission (which is what 'Islam' transliterates as) to a worldview I happen to find counterproductive to normal human relations. Islam sucks, period.

Well done in editing because when i was reading your opinion, I was watching for a predictable insult to mine right at the end....that didn't come!
Well it did but you thought better of it.
Perhaps you are not impressed by Islam - and neither am I but neither is another poster by the arrogant bully Israelis.
Dislikeable cultures both, unless you are one of them I imagine.
Which is all besides the point, other than to underline the futility and pigignorance of BOTH cultures.
A better point to take note of, is that many within every culture of religiius fundamentalism also hold reservations and doubt about their own cultures. Yes, there are millions of blind followers, but many who sit with a feeling of discomfort....like many young educated Iranians and many young educated Jews.

I am aware that rights are set in each segment of the planet and rights are violated by overbearing leaderships - and *that* is my point. Enthusiasm behind convincing one regime it is very wrong is not well placed when it is behind killing anyone. That ought to be taught to every suicide bomber or tank commander, but as well as every regime/culture's LEADERS, every person on this planet.
Do NOT be so opinionated as to support killing.
Defending yourself is a given, attacking someone else is going to require that they defend to your death.
I personally do not get behind attacking one culture against another, and my Jewish and Muslim friends have also asked me to join their arguments against the other's.
I will continue to issue them my belief in understanding vs oppressing.

I completely 'get' where you are coming from in dislike for the religious foaming at the mouth myopia - but it applies all over the World and not just in the middle-east and not just to religious factions, as you yourself pointed out.
So then, unless we get further away from the point - what can be gained by war between Iran and Isreal, except requiring that nations who hold NEITHER in high esteem start killing in their support?

 

[BadFish]

'Human rights' yeah, ok, that's a good one. Jeremy Bentham, a far smarter man than you or me described the idea of 'natural laws and rights' as "nonsense on stilts". 'Rights' are meaningless without laws, and laws are useless without force to back them up. 'Rights' are an abstract concept, found nowhere in nature but written up by whoever is holding the reigns of power at any given time and place on the planet.

The Man decides what your rights are, and what punishment you get for 'violating' those 'rights' - whether it's carpet bombing, the gas chamber, or a parking ticket - history bears that out. The Man might be Genghis Khan, or he might be Nelson Mandela, either way your 'rights' are going to vary considerably under regimes governed by people of either ilk. Think about it.

As for the accusation of being Hitleresque - I have formed an opinion, possibly unique among most posters on this forum full of f***ing whoppers, which has come from direct exposure, over a good few years, to the subject I am talking about - in this case the state of many Islamic/Arab countries.

I see people as individuals, and treat them on an individual basis with interpersonal interaction, regardless of their creed or background. That includes the many muslim friends I have in the above countries. That doesn't mean I like the culture they come from, or their social habits/political views, which are formed by a strict, dogged submission (which is what 'Islam' transliterates as) to a worldview I happen to find counterproductive to normal human relations. Islam sucks, period.

the same can be said for many different cultures and religions. Why do you single out the Muslims?
There are a range of religious views within islam just like Christianity yet you wish to tar all with the same brush.

Do you consider Islam to be more dangerous that Christianity?

 

[fataddick]

Meh.

 

[Twizzle]

A few days ago a Tunisian frind asked mme to vote for Google naming "Palestine" and not "Israel" for that area of the world!
Devisiveness even in the slightest, is only fuelling the division and the friction.
So no, not a cause I personally will involve in.
Maybe I could sway him against his interest in that cause snd maybe not, but I was happy to throw a seed of doubt in hope that it might have roots to grow.
They don't grow well ln hard rock, or stand strong in loose sand - as the biblical stanza suggests.

 

[Lyndhurst 14]

I've worked with plenty of Israelis and I have to say I've never met such a bunch of up their own arse and arrogant people in my life. Never liked a single one I've met.

Completely agree. I had the misfortune of working in Israel for 4 months and could not get out of the place quick enough. The situation over there will never change as long as those people have holes in their arses.

 

[looney]

Completely agree. I had the misfortune of working in Israel for 4 months and could not get out of the place quick enough. The situation over there will never change as long as those people have holes in their arses.

Well this looks like the third "jews are evil" post.

Have known many great Israelis myslef but maybe they just interact different to people depending how they are treated.

 

[Steve Foster]

Completely agree. I had the misfortune of working in Israel for 4 months and could not get out of the place quick enough. The situation over there will never change as long as those people have holes in their arses.

I had the fortune to work in Israel for 6 months. Best experience in my life. I am widely travelled & can honestly say that I haven't been anywhere better (Lake District is great when it is not raining) in the world. New York is crazy for a week, am currently in Iceland, posting this. It's a mad place, but a weekend is about right. Otherwise, for a country the size of Wales, despite it's smallest I can't think of somewhere better on the planet. Suppose that's why everyone fees so passionate about that little strip of land

 

[Falkor]

Well this looks like the third "jews are evil" post.

Have known many great Israelis myslef but maybe they just interact different to people depending how they are treated.

how does it look like that

 

[Southover Street Seagull]

Obviously. The only modern & successful Muslim country is Turkey and that is because it is strictly secular. All other Middle Eastern countries are significantly restricted by Islamic values. Look what happened to the formerly beautiful state of Persia after the Islamic revolution.

I think Iran had plenty of problems with repressive regimes before the Islamic Revolution occurred.

 

[Twizzle]

I think Iran had plenty of problems with repressive regimes before the Islamic Revolution occurred.

I have the impression there was a clear canyon between very rich and very poor.
The wealthy jumped ship when the game was up, & what remained was a large population of maleable malcontents who were embracing doctrine with all their impoverished hearts.
The poor are easily influenced by religion, and they're kept in control by it.
Bush even declared the outrageous war againt Saddam's Iraq "a Crusade"!

 

[Lyndhurst 14]

Well this looks like the third "jews are evil" post.

Have known many great Israelis myslef but maybe they just interact different to people depending how they are treated.

You need to re-read my post. Agreeing that people are “up their own arse” and “arrogant” is a bit different to saying they are evil. Also, where did I refer to Jews, not all Israelis are Jewish.

 

[public school boy]

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

 

[Nibble]

I am somewhat ignorant of the finer details of the situation but I must say Xenophon is putting forward if not the most accurate argument(possibly, I don't know?) certainly seems to come from wide personal experience and I'm finding his opinion on this matter eminantly readable.

 

[martyn20]

I am somewhat ignorant of the finer details of the situation but I must say Xenophon is putting forward if not the most accurate argument(possibly, I don't know?) certainly seems to come from wide personal experience and I'm finding his opinion on this matter eminantly readable.

Can I suggest you have a little read and pick up on some of the finer details, Xenophon's view is at best quite extreme

 

[Nibble]

Can I suggest you have a little read and pick up on some of the finer details, Xenophon's view is at best quite extreme

Haha! I'm sure it is. I will fill myself in on the details of the problem, see if I can't find a way for them to resolve all this argy-bargy. I'll get back to you but my first thought is some kind of camping/team/trust building exercise. I'll have a think.

 

[martyn20]

Forget Israel v Iran it looks like the next war is going to be China v Japan, all looking a little nasty over a group of disputed Islands, it's not just the one clip of Chinese people attacking a Japanese made Police car but the government are saying some nasty stuff about each other

 

[Elvis]

Forget Israel v Iran it looks like the next war is going to be China v Japan, all looking a little nasty over a group of disputed Islands, it's not just the one clip of Chinese people attacking a Japanese made Police car but the government are saying some nasty stuff about each other

No prizes for guessing what is under the sea beds of these islands!!!

 

[BadFish]

Haha! I'm sure it is. I will fill myself in on the details of the problem, see if I can't find a way for them to resolve all this argy-bargy. I'll get back to you but my first thought is some kind of camping/team/trust building exercise. I'll have a think.

Nice one nibble about time someone did, when you are done could you pop round and stop my kids from bickering?