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Islam and the UK - can it ever work?
- Thread starter WATFORD O
- Start date
chip
Well-known member
No, of course you are right.
I think that a lot of British muslims are actually stuck between the devil and the deep blue sea. From my experience of university students, they can face quite unreasonable pressure to conform to certain codes of behaviour. In the 80s I witnessed some quite severe intimidation when I was an undergraduate.
I also think that the mindset is somewhat stuck in the middle ages. In a way, Islam is going through its own inquisition and its always the weakest/most vulnerable that suffer the most. However, I also believe that there is a measure of complicity involved (and, obviously, not all) that allows some really unsavoury characters to assume an unwarrented influence becaue of this.
I think that a lot of British muslims are actually stuck between the devil and the deep blue sea. From my experience of university students, they can face quite unreasonable pressure to conform to certain codes of behaviour. In the 80s I witnessed some quite severe intimidation when I was an undergraduate.
I also think that the mindset is somewhat stuck in the middle ages. In a way, Islam is going through its own inquisition and its always the weakest/most vulnerable that suffer the most. However, I also believe that there is a measure of complicity involved (and, obviously, not all) that allows some really unsavoury characters to assume an unwarrented influence becaue of this.
London Irish
Well-known member
What? This idiot was going to blow up his own fellow demonstrators, was he? What paranoid world do you live in? Do you think every Muslim hothead who protests is ACTUALLY a suicide bomber?gerbil said:
The police did exemplary work in this matter and it's a scandal they are now coming under political pressure to alter their operational judgements. This was not a march out of thin air, the police and the organisers liaised beforehand. During the course of it, the miserable turnout of this demo was tightly policed and everyone holding the inflammatory banners was under surveillance and video'd.
The idiot who dressed up as the suicide bomber was all over the media today grovelling and apologising to whoever came near him. He is typical of the easily-whipped up idoits who took part in this march. No doubt there was some more serious fanatics involved too, but they are known to the police and their activities havel been monitored and will be again.
The Muslim community and its leaders have strongly repudiated these few idiots, yet still the media and a few rent-a-quote politicians are obsessing over them. This is seriously counterproductive as it just gives them some very undeserved oxygen of publicity and will glamorise them in the eyes of a few disaffected young Muslims.
Leave the police to do their job, they have got it right and and an over-excitable media and a few loudmouth MPs haven't.
London Irish
Well-known member
Tooting Gull said:
I'm sorry, but you have the context of this all wrong. This was not "satire", but a horrible, nasty and disgusting attempt to demonise an entire race or religion as bombers and murderers. That's what you are doing when you say Mohammed is a terrorist. It's on a par with such "satire" that says because Hitler was a godbotherer, the Nazis were inspired by Christianity and Jesus.
If I as a cartoonist depicted the Nazis slaughtering Jews in Auschwitz and painted the face of Jesus on every concentration camp guard, and got that published in a mass-circulation British newspaper like the Sun or the Mail, what do you think the reaction from the public would be?
Would people like you be standing up for my rights to free speech? Would you be congratulating me on my daring "satire" and castigate all those complaining about my cartoon as thin-skinned religious nutters?
Would you f***!
First of all, no British newspaper would ever publish grossly offensive shit like that in the first place. Yet that is what this cartoonist and these utterly idiotic editors and publishers did to the Muslim community in Denmark, with utter callous disregard in calling their most precious symbol of their faith a mass-murderer!
But this example is far worse than my gross insult of Christians. Christians are the dominant, strong, majority community through Europe, they have power and influence across all European establishments and their concerns are respected.
That is not the position of these minority Muslim communities, is it? They have suffered tremendous racism ever since arriving as minority communities. Now because some cu nt in the White House has turned the Middle East into a battlefield, Muslims in the west are now looked on as disloyal and viewed with even greater suspicion and fear.
It is in this context of a community under attack that these cartoons are so appalling. They act as the straw that breaks the camel's back in the eyes of many Muslims convinced the west are waging a war on their faith, given the appalling geo-political situation of the endless suffering of the Palestinians, the Chechens and the terrible loss of Muslim life in Iraq and Afghanistan thanks to US carpet-bombing and the resulting collapse of law and order in those countries.
I find it ironic that you evoke the example of black South Africans and left-wing opponents to South American dictators - two examples of communities of people who were under attack by their respective establishments. I view the minority Muslim communities in western Europe as in such a vulnerable position, yet you have no sympathy for them? Well, I remember the days not so long ago when the British government of Thatcher's time were happy to label Mandela as a terrorist - I need no warnings about hypocrisy, thanks.
And you are dead right that no British newspaper would have published those vile cartoons. Not because our tabloid editors are cowards as you falsely suggest, but because we are too successful a multicultural society for powerful intruments of the Establishment like mass-circulation newspapers to so insult Muslims in that casual and irresponsible fashion. That FACT should be applauded, and I'm afraid the Danes and a few need to look to Britain as an example of how we successfully act to integrate our communities.
I am no nationalist but I am happy to say in this regard Britain could teach Europe a lot of lessons
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GNF on Tour
Registered Twunt
LI wrote:
"First of all, no British newspaper would ever publish grossly offensive shit like that in the first place".
Tell that to the Belgrano widows!
GOTCHA!
"First of all, no British newspaper would ever publish grossly offensive shit like that in the first place".
Tell that to the Belgrano widows!
GOTCHA!
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London Irish
Well-known member
GNF on Tour said:
Amazingly that was nearly 25 years ago.
A University of Sussex graduate wrote that headline - makes you proud.
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GNF on Tour
Registered Twunt
London Irish said:
No, it doesn't LI.
London Irish
Well-known member
GNF on Tour said:
Indeed.
That's a completely unfair misrepresentation of the situation, which you have spun to suit your viewpoint. Absolute nonsense.London Irish said:
Apart from anything else, we all know Hitler was an inadequate bloodthirsty racist nutter. On the other hand, our knowledge of religious characters is pure conjecture; and on that basis I think you have to accept that there is no single accepted viewpoint on any of them, rather than cowering to every minority whim.It wasn't funny, Danish society is not particularly racially tolerant apparently, but I'll stand up for the rights of this Jim Davidson meets Rolf Harris moron to produce his "hilarious" scribble.
Gerbil
Nsc's most loved
London Irish said:
Keep going Paddy you'll start to convince yourself that You're right soon enough.
One of the reasons the police didn't arrest him or anyone else for that matter was for fear of the outcry from people like you who seem to brand everyone who doesn't agree with them as a racist.
The term racist has become a bit of a "trendy" to use word of late,and is often used completely out of context as I'm sure you will find if you read through your previous posts on this and other threads.
As for the comment about the man not going to blow up other demonstrators and Muslims.That's not stopped anyone doing that on an almost daily basis in Iraq or in Bali,Egypt and to a lesser extent London last July.
Talk to some of the families of the victims of the London bombings and see what they have to say about seeing someone dressed like that on the streets of London and getting away with it.
Unfortunately the likes of you are a main factor in why nothing has been done about this as a recent Sky News poll suggested,96% in favour of arresting and charging the people who were holding up the placards.
By all means arrest them, but does that mean the next time we sing songs involving violence against Palace does that mean the singers should be arrested too?
The thought of Liz Costa and the knitting circle being behind bars for crooning "Pick up your fathe's gun......" does have some postives!
The thought of Liz Costa and the knitting circle being behind bars for crooning "Pick up your fathe's gun......" does have some postives!
Uncle Spielberg
Well-known member
I think the truth lies somewhere between Watford O and LI. The man with the suicide kit can thank his lucky stars that he was not shot to pieces by the Met. If he had been noone could have blamed them.
ALL of the protestors with the placards should have been arrested.
We are becoming TOO tolerant of these people.
ALL of the protestors with the placards should have been arrested.
We are becoming TOO tolerant of these people.
Dandyman
In London village.
It probably will make no difference to some on here but people might want to consider the contribution that some muslims (and Hindus, Sikhs, etc) made to this country once before...
The British Indian Army during World War II was the largest volunteer army the world has known with long martial traditions going back to the advent of the British in the subcontinent, even earlier. First raised as door keepers and trained bands to guard factories of early merchants, it grew into the army of John Company Bahadur, and subsequently grew into Presidency armies of Bengal, Madras and Bombay in 1795, after the fall of French Pondicherry in 1793. After 1857, the Crown abolished these Presidency Armies and took over their control and reorganisation. For almost 90 years thereafter, after various reorganisations, the British Indian Army distinguished itself in many wars, campaigns, expeditions in India, Asia, Africa, and Europe under the British flag.
The Political Scene in 1939-1940
Since the British Indian Army was a voluntary army, it would be pertinent to briefly recall the political scene in India. When the Second World War broke out in September 1939 and Viceroy Linlithgow announced that India was at war, there were two main political parties in India - the Indian National Congress, led by Mr Gandhi and the All India Muslim League headed by Mr. Jinnah. in 1940 when Great Britain braced herself to face a German invasion and General Weygand told Churchill that BritainÕs neck would be wrung like a chicken in 15 days, Mr Gandhi published an Òopen letterÓ to every BritainÓ Òurging cessation of hostilitiesÓ. He said:
ÒNo cause, however just can warrant the indiscriminate slaughter that is going on minute to minute ... I do not want Britain to be defeated, nor do I want her to be victorious in a trial of brute strength ... I want you to fight Nazism without arms ... I want you to lay down the arms you have as being useless for saving you or humanity. You will invite Herr Hitler and Signor Mussolini to take what they want of the countries you call your possessions. Let them take possession of your beautiful island with your many beautiful buildings. You will give all these, but neither your souls nor your minds. If these gentlemen choose to occupy your homes, you will vacate them. If they do not give you free passage out, you will allow yourself, man, woman and child to be slaughtered, but you will refuse to owe allegiance to them ... I am telling His Excellency the Viceroy that my services are at the disposal of His MajestyÕs Government, should they consider them of any practical use in enhancing my appeal....1
On the other hand the sympathies of the All India Muslim League were clearly on the side of the Allies as against the Axis powers.2 Mr. Jinnah had even said that if Britain lost, the Muslims were likely to suffer.3 L.S. Amery, Secretary of State for India in a confidential press briefing emphasized the fact that Òto a large extent IndiaÕs fighting war effort was dependent on Muslim effortÓ4. Churchill emphasized that the British Òmust not on any account break with the Muslims who represented a hundred million people and represented the main army elements on which the British must rely for the immediate fightingÓ5.
The Armys Expansion
The Indian Army expanded from about 189,000 in October 1939 to 2,500,000 by 1945. In 1939 there were 78 infantry battalions, 20 Gurkha battalions, 18 Cavalry units. The officer strength was 3,000 British; 1,115 Indian. By 1945 these were about 34,500 British, 15,740 Indian officers, of all classes.
The Army took part in campaigns in France, East Africa, North Africa, Syria, Tunisia, Malaya, Burma, Greece, Sicily and Italy. During the war it was organised under one Army Group, four armies, seven Indian Corps, four Armoured Divisions, one Air Borne Division, and twenty three Infantry Divisions. Some of these were lost in Malaya-Singapore, a few re-organised as Lines of Communication Commands in Middle East.
Even before September 1939 troops of the Indian Army were on station duty in Egypt, Palestine, Iraq, Aden, the Gulf, Burma, Malaya and Hong Kong. The first and only units of the Indian Army that took part in the war in France were four animal transport companies of Royal Indian Army Service Corps with the British Expeditionary Force in 1940. While the personnel were evacuated, the gallant horses and mules were undoubtedly given resident status in France were four animal transport companies of Royal Indian Army Service Corps with the British Expeditionary Force in 1940. While the personnel were evacuated the gallant horses and mules were undoubtedly given resident status in France.
The 14th Army in Burma was the single largest army in the world. Its battle front of 700 miles was approximately as long as the Russian front against Germany 6.
The Indian Army suffered the following casualties upto August 1945:
a. Killed - 24,338
b. Wounded - 64,354
c. Missing - 11,754
d. POW - 79,489
---------------
Total: 179,935
Writers Note: (In addition approximately 62,507 from b.c.d, above died). 160,000 of the total casualties are commemorated in war cemeteries in fifty countries extending from the Pacific Islands to UK, according to Commonwealth War Graves Commission.
The Indian Army won 31 Victoria Crosses and out of a total of 27 Victoria Crosses awarded for the Burma campaign 20 were personnel of the Indian Army. The total gallantry awards were 4028.8 Four Victoria Crosses were awarded to soldiers and units of present day Pakistan. For V.C. citation of Sepoy Ali Haider see Annexure A.
Composition of the Army - 1940-1947
Annexure B shows the composition of the British Indian Army. It will be noticed that the percentage of Muslims decreased after 1 January 1942 not because of paucity of volunteer recruits but because of Government of India policy, as the demand for Pakistan built up 1940 onwards. But these figures do not represent Muslim races of present day Pakistan only. On the eve of World War II almost 34,000 Punjabi Muslims were in the army (29 per cent) and during World War-II over 380,000 joined (about 14% of the total). No other class came close to these figures: Sikhs: 116,000, Gurkhas: 109,000, Muslims of other classes from UP, Deccan, Madras, Bengal, NWFP, etc 274,000, were recruited during 1939-1945. Muslims as a whole constituted a quarter of the Indian Army as of 1947 9....
Almost 70 per cent of the wartime recruitment was from what became Pakistan had been from the undivided Punjab, 19.5 per cent from NWFP, 2.2 per cent from Sindh, and 0.06 per cent from Baluchistan.10 The three semi-arid districts of Punjab-Rawalpindi, Jhelum, Attock (Campbellpur) and two districts of NWFP-Kohat and Mardan pre-dominated in supplying recruit volunteers in World War II. Today the recruitment base has enlarged. Now ethnic Baluchis, and Bruhis, who were recruited till the middle of the 19th century, and Sindhis are coming into the Pakistan army in large numbers for Baluch and Sind Regiments. Recruitment of Muslim personnel from Jammu and Kashmir were considered under Punjabi Muslims in World War II. Today they have their own Azad Kashmir Regiment.
Some sixty thousand or so Bengali Muslims (former East Pakistan) also served in World War II in pioneer construction roles.
Class Composition - Infantry
During World War II the increase in the combat arms specially infantry was from 96 units to 228 units, excluding Indian State Forces. In Cavalry from 18 to 19 armoured units and artillery from 7 to 61 units. An analysis of the class composition of infantry regiments would be useful. Please see Annexure C. Noteworthy is the fact that as a matter of policy there were no complete Muslim infantry units since 1857, although there were complete Hindu, Sikh, Gurkha infantry units. Based on the recruiting areas, five Punjab regiments (excluding 2 Punjab), the Baluch Regiment, the Frontier Force Regiment and the Frontier Force Rifles i.e, a total of 6 infantry regiments came to Pakistan ArmyÕs share in 1947. Thereafter a Bengal Regiment (till 1971) an Azad Kashmir Regiment and a Sind Regiment have been raised.
The Baluch Regiment in World War II
The Baluch Regiment fielded some 16 battalions and 5 Garrison companies. Their awards and decorations collated from names of Muslims totalled: 289, including one Victoria Cross.11 Exact figures of their casualties are not available.
The Frontier Force Regiment in World War II
The Frontier Force Regiment fielded some 12 battalions, 1 Garrison battalion, and 3 Garrison companies. Their awards and decorations, were collated from names of Muslim elements, except those of Mention in Dispatches and Jangi Inams which were collated on 10% of officers and 50% for JCOs and ORs on class composition basis totalled: 458 approximately. Casualties - killed in action, wounded or died from wounds sustained totalled: 2,44312 approximately. These were calculated from total on basis of 10% for officers, 50% for JCOs and ORs on class composition basis.
The Frontier Force Rifles in World War II
The Frontier Force Rifles fielded 15 battalions and 3 Garrison companies.
Awards and decorations, collated by names of Muslim elements totalled 400 including one Victoria Cross, see citation at Annexure A.
Figures of Mention in Despatches and Jangi Inams were collated on basis of 10% for officers, 50% for JCOs and ORs respectively on class composition basis. Casualties - killed in action, wounded or died from wounds sustained totalled, 3,126 13 approximately. These were also collated on 10% for officers, 50% for JCOs and ORs on basis of class composition.
*Paper presented at the International Conference on The British Commonwealth and the Allied War Effort 1939-1945, St. Anthonys College, Oxford, U.K. 6-8 April 1998.
ANNEXURE A - SEPOY ALI HAIDER
6th Royal Bn 13th Frontier Force Rifles
In Italy, during the crossing of the River Senio, near Fusignano, in daylight on 9th April, 1945, a Company of the 13th Frontier Force Rifles were ordered to assault the enemy positions strongly dug in on the far bank. These positions had been prepared and improved over many months, and were mainly on the steep flood banks, some 25 feet high.
Sepoy Ali Haider was a member of the left-hand Section of the left-hand Platoon. As soon as the Platoon started to cross, it came under heavy and accurate machine-gun like from two enemy posts strongly dug in about 60 yards away. Sepoy Ali Haiders Section suffered casualties and only 3 men, including himself, managed to get across. The remainder of the Company was temporarily held up. Without orders, and on his own initiative, Sepoy Ali Haider, leaving the other two to cover him, charged the nearest post which was about 30 yards away. He threw a grenade and almost at the same time the enemy threw one at him, wounding him severely in the back. In spite of this he kept on and the enemy post was destroyed and four of the enemy surrendered. With utter disregard of his own wounds he continued and charged the next post in which the enemy had one Spandau and three automatics, which were still very active and preventing movement on both banks. He was again wounded, this time in the right leg and the right arm. Although weakened by loss of blood, with great determination Sepoy Ali Haider crawled closer and in a final effort raised himself from the ground, threw a grenade and charged into the second enemy post. Two of the enemy were wounded and the remaining two surrendered.
Taking advantage of the outstanding success of Sepoy Ali Haiders dauntless attacks, the rest of the Company charged across the river and carried out their task of making a bridgehead.
Sepoy Ali Haider was picked up and brought back from the second position seriously wounded.
The conspicuous gallantry, initiative and determination combined with a complete disregard for his own life shown by this very brave Sepoy in the face of heavy odds were an example to the whole Company. His heroism had saved an ugly situation which would - but for his personal bravery - have caused the Battalion a large number of casualties at a critical time and seriously delayed the crossing of the river and the building of a bridge. With the rapid advance which it was possible to make the Battalion captured 3 officers and 217 other ranks and gained their objectives.
- London Gazette, 3rd July, 1945
ANNEXURE B
RELIGIOUS COMPOSITION OF THE INDIAN ARMY 1940 - 1947
Jan.1, 1940 Jan.1, 1942 Jan.1, 1945 Feb.1, 1946 Jan. 1, 1947 April 1, 1947 June 1, 1947 July 1, 1947
Muslims Number 92,841 279,507 447,580 402,070 205,820 148,607 138,892 135,268
Percentage 37.518 37.626 32.016 32.405 31.762 32.653 36.189 36.210
Hindus Number 93,132 299,850 649,900 602,320 309,360 210,615 159,783 154,780
Percentage 37.635 40.364 46.488 48.546 47.741 46.278 41.632 41.433
Sikhs
Number 31,797 79,118 94,270 86,350 49,560 38,760 35,550 35,390
Percentage 12.850 10.650 6.740 6.960 7.648 8.517 9.263 9.473
Christians and others Number 2,494 19,715 141,830 68,710 31,700 17,157 17,025 16,382
Percentage 1.007 2.654 10.145 5.538 4.819 3.770 4.436 4.386
Gurkhas Number 27,196 64,681 103,260 81,280 51,560 40,110 32,555 31,750
Percentage 10.990 8.707 7.390 6.550 4.957 8.813 8.482 8.499
247,460 742,871 1,436,840 1,240,730 648,000 455,249 383,805 373,570
Source: India, Annual Return showing the Class Composition of the Indian Army, Indian States Forces, Frontier Corps and Levies, Military Police, Assam Rifles, Burma Frontier Force and Hong Kong-Singapore Royal Artillery on 1st January 1933 to 1940, pp. 126-29, IOR: L/Mil/14/236; Annual Return on 1st January 1942, pp. 186-9, IOR: L/Mil/14/236; GHQ India to War Office, letter, February 21, 1945, March 14, 1946, February 7, 1947, May 7, 1947, July 5, 1947, and July 30, 1947.
ANNEXURE C
CLASS COMPOSITION OF INDIAN INFANTRY
Caste Hindus Mussalmans Sikhs Others (including Scheduled Caste
1 Punjab 1/2 1/2 - -
2 Punjab 1/3 1/3 1/3 -
Madras 1/2 1/4 - 1/4
Indian Grenadiers 1/2 1/2 - -
Mahratta Light Infantry 1 - - -
Rajput Rifle 2/3 1/3 - -
Rajput 1/2 1/2 - -
8 Punjab 1/2 1/2 - -
Jat 1/2 1/2 - -
Baluch 1/4 3/4 - -
Sikh - 1/4 3/4 -
Frontier Force Regiment 1/4 1/2 1/4 -
Frontier Force Rifle 1/4 1/2 1/4 -
14 Punjab 1/4 1/2 1/4
15 Punjab 1/4 1/2 1/4 -
16 Punjab 1/3 1/3 1/3 -
Dogra 1 - - -
Ram Garh Rifle 1 - - -
Kumaon 1 - - -
Assam - - - 1
Sikh Light Infantry - - 1 -
Mahar - - - 1
Bihar - - - 1
9 1/3 6 3/4 3 2/3 3 1/4
Source: Francis Tukker, While Memory Serves, London, 1950, p.653.
REFERENCES
1. Walpert, S, Jinnah of Pakistan. Oxford University Press 1984. pp 187-188
2. Haq, Dr, Brig Noorul, Making of Pakistan The Military Perspective. National Institute of Historical and Cultural Research, Islamabad. 1993 p 258
3. Ibid
4. Ibid p 51
5. Churchill, W, S, Second World War, Vol IV pp 185-187
6. Tuker, Lt Gen, Sir Francis, While Memory Serves, Cassell & Company Ltd 1950. pp 578-579
7. Ibid p. 579
8. Ibid p. 579
9. Cohen, Stephen P, The Pakistan Army, University of California Press, Berkeley 1984, pp 41-44
10. Ibid p. 42
11. Thatcher, W.S. The Baluch Regiment in Second World War, published by The Baluch Regimental Centre, Abbottabad, Pakistan 1980
12. London, Brig, W.E.H. The Frontier Force Regiment; Gale & Polden. Aldershot 1962 pp 573-586
13. London, Brig W. E. H; The Frontier Force Rifles; Gale & Pllden 1953 pp 451-456
.
The British Indian Army during World War II was the largest volunteer army the world has known with long martial traditions going back to the advent of the British in the subcontinent, even earlier. First raised as door keepers and trained bands to guard factories of early merchants, it grew into the army of John Company Bahadur, and subsequently grew into Presidency armies of Bengal, Madras and Bombay in 1795, after the fall of French Pondicherry in 1793. After 1857, the Crown abolished these Presidency Armies and took over their control and reorganisation. For almost 90 years thereafter, after various reorganisations, the British Indian Army distinguished itself in many wars, campaigns, expeditions in India, Asia, Africa, and Europe under the British flag.
The Political Scene in 1939-1940
Since the British Indian Army was a voluntary army, it would be pertinent to briefly recall the political scene in India. When the Second World War broke out in September 1939 and Viceroy Linlithgow announced that India was at war, there were two main political parties in India - the Indian National Congress, led by Mr Gandhi and the All India Muslim League headed by Mr. Jinnah. in 1940 when Great Britain braced herself to face a German invasion and General Weygand told Churchill that BritainÕs neck would be wrung like a chicken in 15 days, Mr Gandhi published an Òopen letterÓ to every BritainÓ Òurging cessation of hostilitiesÓ. He said:
ÒNo cause, however just can warrant the indiscriminate slaughter that is going on minute to minute ... I do not want Britain to be defeated, nor do I want her to be victorious in a trial of brute strength ... I want you to fight Nazism without arms ... I want you to lay down the arms you have as being useless for saving you or humanity. You will invite Herr Hitler and Signor Mussolini to take what they want of the countries you call your possessions. Let them take possession of your beautiful island with your many beautiful buildings. You will give all these, but neither your souls nor your minds. If these gentlemen choose to occupy your homes, you will vacate them. If they do not give you free passage out, you will allow yourself, man, woman and child to be slaughtered, but you will refuse to owe allegiance to them ... I am telling His Excellency the Viceroy that my services are at the disposal of His MajestyÕs Government, should they consider them of any practical use in enhancing my appeal....1
On the other hand the sympathies of the All India Muslim League were clearly on the side of the Allies as against the Axis powers.2 Mr. Jinnah had even said that if Britain lost, the Muslims were likely to suffer.3 L.S. Amery, Secretary of State for India in a confidential press briefing emphasized the fact that Òto a large extent IndiaÕs fighting war effort was dependent on Muslim effortÓ4. Churchill emphasized that the British Òmust not on any account break with the Muslims who represented a hundred million people and represented the main army elements on which the British must rely for the immediate fightingÓ5.
The Armys Expansion
The Indian Army expanded from about 189,000 in October 1939 to 2,500,000 by 1945. In 1939 there were 78 infantry battalions, 20 Gurkha battalions, 18 Cavalry units. The officer strength was 3,000 British; 1,115 Indian. By 1945 these were about 34,500 British, 15,740 Indian officers, of all classes.
The Army took part in campaigns in France, East Africa, North Africa, Syria, Tunisia, Malaya, Burma, Greece, Sicily and Italy. During the war it was organised under one Army Group, four armies, seven Indian Corps, four Armoured Divisions, one Air Borne Division, and twenty three Infantry Divisions. Some of these were lost in Malaya-Singapore, a few re-organised as Lines of Communication Commands in Middle East.
Even before September 1939 troops of the Indian Army were on station duty in Egypt, Palestine, Iraq, Aden, the Gulf, Burma, Malaya and Hong Kong. The first and only units of the Indian Army that took part in the war in France were four animal transport companies of Royal Indian Army Service Corps with the British Expeditionary Force in 1940. While the personnel were evacuated, the gallant horses and mules were undoubtedly given resident status in France were four animal transport companies of Royal Indian Army Service Corps with the British Expeditionary Force in 1940. While the personnel were evacuated the gallant horses and mules were undoubtedly given resident status in France.
The 14th Army in Burma was the single largest army in the world. Its battle front of 700 miles was approximately as long as the Russian front against Germany 6.
The Indian Army suffered the following casualties upto August 1945:
a. Killed - 24,338
b. Wounded - 64,354
c. Missing - 11,754
d. POW - 79,489
---------------
Total: 179,935
Writers Note: (In addition approximately 62,507 from b.c.d, above died). 160,000 of the total casualties are commemorated in war cemeteries in fifty countries extending from the Pacific Islands to UK, according to Commonwealth War Graves Commission.
The Indian Army won 31 Victoria Crosses and out of a total of 27 Victoria Crosses awarded for the Burma campaign 20 were personnel of the Indian Army. The total gallantry awards were 4028.8 Four Victoria Crosses were awarded to soldiers and units of present day Pakistan. For V.C. citation of Sepoy Ali Haider see Annexure A.
Composition of the Army - 1940-1947
Annexure B shows the composition of the British Indian Army. It will be noticed that the percentage of Muslims decreased after 1 January 1942 not because of paucity of volunteer recruits but because of Government of India policy, as the demand for Pakistan built up 1940 onwards. But these figures do not represent Muslim races of present day Pakistan only. On the eve of World War II almost 34,000 Punjabi Muslims were in the army (29 per cent) and during World War-II over 380,000 joined (about 14% of the total). No other class came close to these figures: Sikhs: 116,000, Gurkhas: 109,000, Muslims of other classes from UP, Deccan, Madras, Bengal, NWFP, etc 274,000, were recruited during 1939-1945. Muslims as a whole constituted a quarter of the Indian Army as of 1947 9....
Almost 70 per cent of the wartime recruitment was from what became Pakistan had been from the undivided Punjab, 19.5 per cent from NWFP, 2.2 per cent from Sindh, and 0.06 per cent from Baluchistan.10 The three semi-arid districts of Punjab-Rawalpindi, Jhelum, Attock (Campbellpur) and two districts of NWFP-Kohat and Mardan pre-dominated in supplying recruit volunteers in World War II. Today the recruitment base has enlarged. Now ethnic Baluchis, and Bruhis, who were recruited till the middle of the 19th century, and Sindhis are coming into the Pakistan army in large numbers for Baluch and Sind Regiments. Recruitment of Muslim personnel from Jammu and Kashmir were considered under Punjabi Muslims in World War II. Today they have their own Azad Kashmir Regiment.
Some sixty thousand or so Bengali Muslims (former East Pakistan) also served in World War II in pioneer construction roles.
Class Composition - Infantry
During World War II the increase in the combat arms specially infantry was from 96 units to 228 units, excluding Indian State Forces. In Cavalry from 18 to 19 armoured units and artillery from 7 to 61 units. An analysis of the class composition of infantry regiments would be useful. Please see Annexure C. Noteworthy is the fact that as a matter of policy there were no complete Muslim infantry units since 1857, although there were complete Hindu, Sikh, Gurkha infantry units. Based on the recruiting areas, five Punjab regiments (excluding 2 Punjab), the Baluch Regiment, the Frontier Force Regiment and the Frontier Force Rifles i.e, a total of 6 infantry regiments came to Pakistan ArmyÕs share in 1947. Thereafter a Bengal Regiment (till 1971) an Azad Kashmir Regiment and a Sind Regiment have been raised.
The Baluch Regiment in World War II
The Baluch Regiment fielded some 16 battalions and 5 Garrison companies. Their awards and decorations collated from names of Muslims totalled: 289, including one Victoria Cross.11 Exact figures of their casualties are not available.
The Frontier Force Regiment in World War II
The Frontier Force Regiment fielded some 12 battalions, 1 Garrison battalion, and 3 Garrison companies. Their awards and decorations, were collated from names of Muslim elements, except those of Mention in Dispatches and Jangi Inams which were collated on 10% of officers and 50% for JCOs and ORs on class composition basis totalled: 458 approximately. Casualties - killed in action, wounded or died from wounds sustained totalled: 2,44312 approximately. These were calculated from total on basis of 10% for officers, 50% for JCOs and ORs on class composition basis.
The Frontier Force Rifles in World War II
The Frontier Force Rifles fielded 15 battalions and 3 Garrison companies.
Awards and decorations, collated by names of Muslim elements totalled 400 including one Victoria Cross, see citation at Annexure A.
Figures of Mention in Despatches and Jangi Inams were collated on basis of 10% for officers, 50% for JCOs and ORs respectively on class composition basis. Casualties - killed in action, wounded or died from wounds sustained totalled, 3,126 13 approximately. These were also collated on 10% for officers, 50% for JCOs and ORs on basis of class composition.
*Paper presented at the International Conference on The British Commonwealth and the Allied War Effort 1939-1945, St. Anthonys College, Oxford, U.K. 6-8 April 1998.
ANNEXURE A - SEPOY ALI HAIDER
6th Royal Bn 13th Frontier Force Rifles
In Italy, during the crossing of the River Senio, near Fusignano, in daylight on 9th April, 1945, a Company of the 13th Frontier Force Rifles were ordered to assault the enemy positions strongly dug in on the far bank. These positions had been prepared and improved over many months, and were mainly on the steep flood banks, some 25 feet high.
Sepoy Ali Haider was a member of the left-hand Section of the left-hand Platoon. As soon as the Platoon started to cross, it came under heavy and accurate machine-gun like from two enemy posts strongly dug in about 60 yards away. Sepoy Ali Haiders Section suffered casualties and only 3 men, including himself, managed to get across. The remainder of the Company was temporarily held up. Without orders, and on his own initiative, Sepoy Ali Haider, leaving the other two to cover him, charged the nearest post which was about 30 yards away. He threw a grenade and almost at the same time the enemy threw one at him, wounding him severely in the back. In spite of this he kept on and the enemy post was destroyed and four of the enemy surrendered. With utter disregard of his own wounds he continued and charged the next post in which the enemy had one Spandau and three automatics, which were still very active and preventing movement on both banks. He was again wounded, this time in the right leg and the right arm. Although weakened by loss of blood, with great determination Sepoy Ali Haider crawled closer and in a final effort raised himself from the ground, threw a grenade and charged into the second enemy post. Two of the enemy were wounded and the remaining two surrendered.
Taking advantage of the outstanding success of Sepoy Ali Haiders dauntless attacks, the rest of the Company charged across the river and carried out their task of making a bridgehead.
Sepoy Ali Haider was picked up and brought back from the second position seriously wounded.
The conspicuous gallantry, initiative and determination combined with a complete disregard for his own life shown by this very brave Sepoy in the face of heavy odds were an example to the whole Company. His heroism had saved an ugly situation which would - but for his personal bravery - have caused the Battalion a large number of casualties at a critical time and seriously delayed the crossing of the river and the building of a bridge. With the rapid advance which it was possible to make the Battalion captured 3 officers and 217 other ranks and gained their objectives.
- London Gazette, 3rd July, 1945
ANNEXURE B
RELIGIOUS COMPOSITION OF THE INDIAN ARMY 1940 - 1947
Jan.1, 1940 Jan.1, 1942 Jan.1, 1945 Feb.1, 1946 Jan. 1, 1947 April 1, 1947 June 1, 1947 July 1, 1947
Muslims Number 92,841 279,507 447,580 402,070 205,820 148,607 138,892 135,268
Percentage 37.518 37.626 32.016 32.405 31.762 32.653 36.189 36.210
Hindus Number 93,132 299,850 649,900 602,320 309,360 210,615 159,783 154,780
Percentage 37.635 40.364 46.488 48.546 47.741 46.278 41.632 41.433
Sikhs
Number 31,797 79,118 94,270 86,350 49,560 38,760 35,550 35,390
Percentage 12.850 10.650 6.740 6.960 7.648 8.517 9.263 9.473
Christians and others Number 2,494 19,715 141,830 68,710 31,700 17,157 17,025 16,382
Percentage 1.007 2.654 10.145 5.538 4.819 3.770 4.436 4.386
Gurkhas Number 27,196 64,681 103,260 81,280 51,560 40,110 32,555 31,750
Percentage 10.990 8.707 7.390 6.550 4.957 8.813 8.482 8.499
247,460 742,871 1,436,840 1,240,730 648,000 455,249 383,805 373,570
Source: India, Annual Return showing the Class Composition of the Indian Army, Indian States Forces, Frontier Corps and Levies, Military Police, Assam Rifles, Burma Frontier Force and Hong Kong-Singapore Royal Artillery on 1st January 1933 to 1940, pp. 126-29, IOR: L/Mil/14/236; Annual Return on 1st January 1942, pp. 186-9, IOR: L/Mil/14/236; GHQ India to War Office, letter, February 21, 1945, March 14, 1946, February 7, 1947, May 7, 1947, July 5, 1947, and July 30, 1947.
ANNEXURE C
CLASS COMPOSITION OF INDIAN INFANTRY
Caste Hindus Mussalmans Sikhs Others (including Scheduled Caste
1 Punjab 1/2 1/2 - -
2 Punjab 1/3 1/3 1/3 -
Madras 1/2 1/4 - 1/4
Indian Grenadiers 1/2 1/2 - -
Mahratta Light Infantry 1 - - -
Rajput Rifle 2/3 1/3 - -
Rajput 1/2 1/2 - -
8 Punjab 1/2 1/2 - -
Jat 1/2 1/2 - -
Baluch 1/4 3/4 - -
Sikh - 1/4 3/4 -
Frontier Force Regiment 1/4 1/2 1/4 -
Frontier Force Rifle 1/4 1/2 1/4 -
14 Punjab 1/4 1/2 1/4
15 Punjab 1/4 1/2 1/4 -
16 Punjab 1/3 1/3 1/3 -
Dogra 1 - - -
Ram Garh Rifle 1 - - -
Kumaon 1 - - -
Assam - - - 1
Sikh Light Infantry - - 1 -
Mahar - - - 1
Bihar - - - 1
9 1/3 6 3/4 3 2/3 3 1/4
Source: Francis Tukker, While Memory Serves, London, 1950, p.653.
REFERENCES
1. Walpert, S, Jinnah of Pakistan. Oxford University Press 1984. pp 187-188
2. Haq, Dr, Brig Noorul, Making of Pakistan The Military Perspective. National Institute of Historical and Cultural Research, Islamabad. 1993 p 258
3. Ibid
4. Ibid p 51
5. Churchill, W, S, Second World War, Vol IV pp 185-187
6. Tuker, Lt Gen, Sir Francis, While Memory Serves, Cassell & Company Ltd 1950. pp 578-579
7. Ibid p. 579
8. Ibid p. 579
9. Cohen, Stephen P, The Pakistan Army, University of California Press, Berkeley 1984, pp 41-44
10. Ibid p. 42
11. Thatcher, W.S. The Baluch Regiment in Second World War, published by The Baluch Regimental Centre, Abbottabad, Pakistan 1980
12. London, Brig, W.E.H. The Frontier Force Regiment; Gale & Polden. Aldershot 1962 pp 573-586
13. London, Brig W. E. H; The Frontier Force Rifles; Gale & Pllden 1953 pp 451-456
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Uncle Spielberg said:
Yes, they should BE arrested. That's why the police filmed the event. But would it honestly be better to storm into the middle of the crown and arrest them on the spot, risking the riots getting even worse?
I think so far it's right - get all the evidence, arrest later. I just hope, like you, that they now do go and arrest those who threatened another terrorist attack, beit with "costume" or written threat.
withdeanwombat
Well-known member
To get back to basics,a cartoon which is bound to offend offends.People get upset,as was inevitable.When people get truly upset they can do daft things that lead to yet more upset.
So why deliberately provoke people in the first instance?
I have no religious axe to grind.I believe it all to be nonsense,but to many, religion is more than a way of life,it IS life.
So leave them alone.
NOW!
So why deliberately provoke people in the first instance?
I have no religious axe to grind.I believe it all to be nonsense,but to many, religion is more than a way of life,it IS life.
So leave them alone.
NOW!
Uncle Spielberg
Well-known member
As long as they don't want to impose that way of life onto other people who do not believe in their god and " have the Islamic flag flying over Downing Street "
" Bakra 2005 "
" Bakra 2005 "
Dandyman
In London village.
Uncle Spielberg said:
Muslims are about 2.5% of the British population. The extremists are a tiny minority of that minority. I detest religious fundamentalism and it's reactionary agenda be it Islamic, Christian, Jewish, Hindu or any other but let's keep a sense of perspective.
Uncle Spielberg
Well-known member
The problem as I see it is that Muslim and Islam are coming across as a very aggressive religion. There does not seem to be a lot of love in their faith. Its all aggression and kill anyone who does believe in our religion.
I am no expert on the Quran but this is the way the British public think of the religions I would wager.
I am no expert on the Quran but this is the way the British public think of the religions I would wager.
Hampden Park
Ex R.N.
- Oct 7, 2003
- 4,993
quran quran, quran quran, quran quran quran I SAY
quran quran, quran quran, quran quran quran.
do you wanna be in my mob, my mob, my mob
do you wanna be in my mob, ALLAH
etc etc
sorry i,m bored
quran quran, quran quran, quran quran quran.
do you wanna be in my mob, my mob, my mob
do you wanna be in my mob, ALLAH
etc etc
sorry i,m bored
