Is this really necessary in the UK?

[wellquickwoody]

It's interesting that everyone's banging on about racism. It's almost a red herring.

Black kids have lower life chances than white kids in this country by a significant margin. That's not right.

All this rubbish of a load of white guys non-ironically discussing what racism is and isn't, is just ****ing waffle to avoid considering that fact.

But by all means carry on.

Another 'you can only discuss racism if you are not white' contributor

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Black Lives Matter the US version should be changed to Black Thugs Matter.

Better hope the UK version doesn't turn out like the US version.

 

[alfredmizen]

No, you can talk about it all you like. I'm saying that talking about what is and isn't racist is a distraction from the real problem. Regardless of whether you or I think we are racist or not black kids born today in this country are at a disadvantage in comparison to white kids. That's the problem.

And thats all down to racism is it ? Nothing whatsoever to do with attitudes to learning in schools , the higher preponderance of one parent families , gang culture amongst blacks etc nothing to do with that then,no ?

 

[BadFish]

Another 'you can only discuss racism if you are not white' contributor

Ultimately none of us white people can understand the reasons that people feel the need to create groups like this because we simply do not have the same experiences that black people have had and continue to have. I see nothing wrong with discussing it at all but for us to have a crack at answering your question would be impossible. They obviously think it is necessary, they think it is going to do some good and is a worthwhile use of their time so from that perspective I am happy to assume that for them it is necessary.

 

[BadFish]

And thats all down to racism is it ? Nothing whatsoever to do with attitudes to learning in schools , the higher preponderance of one parent families , gang culture amongst blacks etc nothing to do with that then,no ?

All of these things could and have been argued to be the results of a history of racism and disadvantage. The argument is compelling if you care to have a look into it (I have no doubt you won't and this is another one of those things you 'just don't believe' and that is your choice).

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Ultimately none of us white people can understand the reasons that people feel the need to create groups like this because we simple do not have the same experiences that black people have had and continue to have. I see nothing wrong with discussing it at all but for us to have a crack at answering your question would be impossible. They obviously think it is necessary, they think it is going to do some good and is a worthwhile use of their time so from that perspective I am happy to assume that for them it is necessary.

Really? So no white people would know about experiencing racism?

 

[BadFish]

Really? So no white people would know about experiencing racism?

View attachment 76967

Not what i said at all.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Not what i said at all.

You said they didn't have the same experiences that black people have had.

 

[spring hall convert]

And thats all down to racism is it ? Nothing whatsoever to do with attitudes to learning in schools , the higher preponderance of one parent families , gang culture amongst blacks etc nothing to do with that then,no ?

I never said it was down to racism. In fact I'm at pains on this thread to point out that I actually think that white people soul searching about whether they are racist or not isn't massively helpful.

There is a problem, we have an obligation as a society to act and not to try and belittle or ignore that problem.

 

[Wilko]

I dated a Caribbean girl a few years back and most of her friends were black, it was my first real experience of spending any length of time with anyone other than white English people and it was not a pleasant experience at all.
I'm not generalising as I know everyone is different, but her group of friends had a major chip on their shoulders about us white folk.
From what I've experienced, racism very much works both ways, although it's also very much overlooked when it's black on white.
When I was in my late teens I got jumped by 7 black guys, beat the shit out of me and nicked my bike. I never played the race card, to me it was a bunch of moron criminals, nothing more. But reverse that situation, me and 6 of my white mates beat up a black kid. The media wouod have a field day and there would be rioting!
For the black UK community to be protesting about events in the states is more of a look at me kind of statement, but whatever floats their boat. If it makes them feel better or helps them think theyre making a difference then go for it, as long as theyre not hurting anyone and it's all done peacefully.

Having just lived in Kenya for three years I can honestly say the racism I heard and experienced there towards white people far, far exceeds anything you would have heard here so I agree. There is also this perception that racism is only black to white. I've even heard the very odd expression 'reverse racism' if it is black to white, WTF is the word reverse doing there? racism is racism, calling it reverse racism denotes that the only way to be racist is white to black.

My girlfriend is mixed race (white British father and black Kenyan mother) and her experience is interesting, she is not accepted as Kenyan in her own country because her skin is lighter. She has to carry her ID everywhere to prove her nationality and there is a mixture of amazement and shock when she speaks to locals in perfect swahili. She went to university in Scotland and of course here in the UK she is seen as black which is quite alien to her. Anyway, my point is that she hears both sides and says that black to white comments and views and far, far worse than anything she has heard the other way around.

Though he can be a cock sometimes, I found this really interesting:

 

[BadFish]

You said they didn't have the same experiences that black people have had.

I said us white people didn't have the same experiences that black people have and continue to have. That is not to say that we have not experienced anything at all. We just have not had the same experiences as those people who have chosen to create this group. Therefore it is not up to us to decide if it is necessary or not

 

[spring hall convert]

Hang on, who is making excuses ? you wrote that discussing the problem is a red herring. You are now discussing the problem. Of course we need to improve life chances for the disadvantaged but if we don't discuss and define those disadvantages we will not gain the necessary consensus to make whatever changes are necessary. I find your reference to the colour of my skin in this discussion rather offensive although I do know you don't mean any offence.

Do you see how in this thread the usual suspects are having a bun fight about how non-racist they are and oh so cleverly mocking the blacklivesmatter movement?

The point I'm making is if a person seriously thinks you are not at a disadvantage to be born black in this country then they are completely deluded. Whether they believe themselves to be racist or not or believe it to be as a result of racism is secondary to that point. I'm fed up of people hijacking this debate with petty squabbles about the theoretical nature of racism or their own life experience of having met a few nasty black lads.

 

[spring hall convert]

Another 'you can only discuss racism if you are not white' contributor

Not at all. We can discuss racism all we like, I just think that if you're in denial about being born black being a disadvantage to your life chances in this country then it'll be a fairly pointless exercise.

 

[Hastings gull]

I dated a Caribbean girl a few years back and most of her friends were black, it was my first real experience of spending any length of time with anyone other than white English people and it was not a pleasant experience at all.
I'm not generalising as I know everyone is different, but her group of friends had a major chip on their shoulders about us white folk.
From what I've experienced, racism very much works both ways, although it's also very much overlooked when it's black on white.
When I was in my late teens I got jumped by 7 black guys, beat the shit out of me and nicked my bike. I never played the race card, to me it was a bunch of moron criminals, nothing more. But reverse that situation, me and 6 of my white mates beat up a black kid. The media wouod have a field day and there would be rioting!
For the black UK community to be protesting about events in the states is more of a look at me kind of statement, but whatever floats their boat. If it makes them feel better or helps them think theyre making a difference then go for it, as long as theyre not hurting anyone and it's all done peacefully.

I see what you are saying and if they decide to have a peaceful demo, then that is lawful and their right, provided police are informed/traffic considerations are factored in etc etc. However, I am absolutely certain that if you had been driving to get a plane at Heathrow to begin a well-deserved holiday, and missed it because a handful of demonstrators decided to go for full publicity by being as disruptive as possible, then your attitude would not be "go for it."

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

 

[spring hall convert]

From experience I believe that your 4th point is largely down to genetic reasons . No number of people laying down on a motorway would make any difference .

I don't suppose you'd have any evidence to back this up would you?

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

I said us white people didn't have the same experiences that black people have and continue to have. That is not to say that we have not experienced anything at all. We just have not had the same experiences as those people who have chosen to create this group. Therefore it is not up to us to decide if it is necessary or not

I personally think anyone who simply uses langauge like "whites" has the same mentality as those people who say "all asians look the same".

Lumping a large grouping of diverse cultures into one all encompasing group is lazy and dishonest.

 

[BadFish]

I personally think anyone who simply uses langauge like "whites" has the same mentality as those people who say "all asians look the same".

Lumping a large grouping of diverse cultures into one all encompasing group is lazy and dishonest.

Yes it was a bit lazy, although I wasn't grouping a range of diverse cultures into one. I was specifically trying to (and failing) to define the members of this board who broadly all fit into a white and Anglo Saxon group. I concede i should maybe have taken a little more time on this part of my post but thought this was fairly obvious in the context of the point I was making (may have taken a little consideration I grant you) and your description of it is disingenuous to say the least. But then I understand your need to score points after your first attempt at a rebuttal of my post was so poor.

That said though I would like to point out a few points of order:
1. I did not use the phrase 'whites'
2. It is interesting that you have a problem with me using the words 'white people' not 'black people'
3. You used the same 'white people' phrase that you are criticising me for in post #66

Now i remember why I don't usually respond to your posts.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Yes it was a bit lazy, although I wasn't grouping a range of diverse cultures into one. I was specifically trying to (and failing) to define the members of this board who broadly all fit into a white and Anglo Saxon group. I concede i should maybe have taken a little more time on this part of my post but thought this was fairly obvious in the context of the point I was making (may have taken a little consideration I grant you) and your description of it is disingenuous to say the least. But then I understand your need to score points after your first attempt at a rebuttal of my post was so poor.

I'm not trying to score points. I'm just pointing out the flaws I see in people's representation of "white" people and history.

 

[BLOCK F]

The thread was 'Is this really necessary in the UK' referring to the Black Lives Matter movement.
Well, cutting through all the sensible comments as well as the crap on here, I suggest not.
Social media is absolutely full of protest, splinter, one cause, populist and frankly completely bonkers interests and with the state of the Labour Party this has spilt over into politics, or perhaps it is the other way round. One could possibly classify the EU Referendum as another 'cause'.
Where does it all end? In my lifetime, the attitude towards black people in this country has changed immeasurably. Yes, there are still idiotic racists, but they are a minority and will probably always be with us. I can't see a 'Black Lives Matter' changing that.
Yes, I know I am a white middle-class individual living in the South of England, but I reckon there is far more racism towards Eastern Europeans than black people.