Is this really necessary in the UK?

[Neville's Breakfast]

But by talking about racism from your position of privilege you turn it into a debate about a concept when it should be a debate about real life. The facts are unarguable, a black child born in this country has lower life chances than a white kid. That's not right.

It doesn't really matter if you or I think this is because of racism or not.

So are you saying that this debate on real life should only be conducted by those that consider themselves to be the victims ? Does this extend to other issues ? For example, assuming you are in work does your opinion on the plight of the unemployed not matter and should you be barred from discussing it ?

 

[spring hall convert]

So are you saying that this debate on real life should only be conducted by those that consider themselves to be the victims ? Does this extend to other issues ? For example, assuming you are in work does your opinion on the plight of the unemployed not matter and should you be barred from discussing it ?

No, you can talk about it all you like. I'm saying that talking about what is and isn't racist is a distraction from the real problem. Regardless of whether you or I think we are racist or not black kids born today in this country are at a disadvantage in comparison to white kids. That's the problem.

 

[Gabbafella]

My ex-wife is black. I agree with your point entirely based on my direct experiences too. Racism does work both ways, but not all those connected to my wife had the chip on their shoulder and neither of us felt self conscious about being a mixed raced race couple either.

I never felt like I should apologise to people about dating her or anything like that, but there was a definite disapproval from around 70% of her friends, end of the day it was their issue, certainly not mine or hers.
I do remember being approached along western road by two black guys and they asked what business a honky had with a black girl and couldn't I find one of my own to date.
Obviously the flip side to that is I also met some very nice people in my time with her who were very welcoming and accepting of us. Swings and roundabouts I guess.

 

[spring hall convert]

Do you know the statistics for Black people murdering other Black people in the UK .

No because I don't feel the need to ignore the simple fact that black kids have lower life chances in this country and pretend that we as a society don't have an obligation to try and change that.

 

[Sweeney Todd]

I have been racially abused four times: once in Scotland, once in Wales, and twice in Oxford by gangs of Asian men...and that is not to mention the number of times that I have been insulted for being a Roman Catholic.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

No, you can talk about it all you like. I'm saying that talking about what is and isn't racist is a distraction from the real problem. Regardless of whether you or I think we are racist or not black kids born today in this country are at a disadvantage in comparison to white kids. That's the problem.

Discussing what is and what isn't racism is the heart of the problem. Those issues facing black kids will not be solved by devaluing the experience of racism by a lack of definition. There are all sorts of groups who are disadvantaged in society. This includes black people, white working class people, women etc etc. Talking about it and finding perspective is crucial to solving the problem as most people reject the two extreme positions of ' there is no racism' and 'there is racism everywhere'.

 

[Insel affe]

No because I don't feel the need to ignore the simple fact that black kids have lower life chances in this country and pretend that we as a society don't have an obligation to try and change that.

There are so many factors for this and one being the high percentage of males that walk out on families, which in turn hinders a child's progress and can limit what the mother can do for the child for all sorts of reasons.

This is a major problem and a factor that needs addressing somehow.

This is from the Metro

Almost half the black children in Britain are being raised by single parents, new Government figures reveal.
A quarter of all youngsters live in one-parent families – treble the proportion in 1972, according to the Office for National Statistics.
The biggest percentage of lone-parent households is among black ethnic groups. Forty-eight per cent of black Caribbean families have one parent, as do 36 per cent of black African households.
Single-parent families are less common among Indians (ten per cent), Bangladeshis (12 per cent), Pakistanis (13 per cent), Chinese (15 per cent) and whites (22 per cent).
Nine out of ten single-parent families are headed by mothers.
Children who grow up without their biological father are more likely to be unemployed, commit crime and leave education early, according to research by think tank Civitas.
They are also twice as likely to be homeless.
Lone-parent families are three times more likely to live in rented accommodation than couples with children and are also more likely to live in homes that fall below minimum standards.
Michael Scanlan, from the Family and Parenting Institute, said lone-parent families were ‘disproportionately’ likely to feel the effects of poverty compared with couples.
He added: ‘Having just one income is likely to affect the child.
‘It is also likely the parent is going to have to work longer hours so it minimises important contact between parent and child.
‘We need to ensure single parents get access to affordable and high-quality child care

 

[carlzeiss]

Black people

2 times more likely to die in Police Custody
37 times more likely to be stopped and searched
3 times more likely to be arrested
44 times more likely to be detained under the mental health act
3 times more likely to be unemployed

Than white people.

From experience I believe that your 4th point is largely down to genetic reasons . No number of people laying down on a motorway would make any difference .

 

[Paul Reids Sock]

I never felt like I should apologise to people about dating her or anything like that, but there was a definite disapproval from around 70% of her friends, end of the day it was their issue, certainly not mine or hers.
I do remember being approached along western road by two black guys and they asked what business a honky had with a black girl and couldn't I find one of my own to date.
Obviously the flip side to that is I also met some very nice people in my time with her who were very welcoming and accepting of us. Swings and roundabouts I guess.

I had similar when I was dating a white girl. However the issue wasn't race it was class - she was very wealthy privately educated girl from a Catholic family - her Dad was even a former priest.

Along I come, lower middle class (or working class, never surer where the divide is), not massively well off but doing enough to get by, agnostic lad from the local comprehensive. I have never known people to immediately take a disliking to me so quickly. The whole family looked down on me and were openly encouraging her to find a 'more suitable' gentleman even when I was around for dinner

There are massive issues in this country regarding intolerance to many things, colour is possibly the biggest, possibly not. But it is definitely the most easily seen.

 

[LU7 RED]

Bypassing the discussions on the level of racism in the UK - and whether this protest is merited in the UK, my problem is why it's being held today.

Its the 5th anniversary of that drug dealing wannabe gangster Mark Duggan getting shot dead. No sympathy from me, unlike the John DeMenizes killing on the tube that was out of order in my view (and from what we know happened). It devalues the protest and whatever message they are trying to get across.

 

[Murray 17]

I was under the impression that amongst the biggest votes for Brexit were East Anglia, Lincolnshire, Yorkshire and East Midlands which have had the biggest immigration levels.

I'm glad you pointed this out.

BEFORE the Brexit vote, someone who posted earlier on this thread, told me that where immigration is higher there is a greater support for the EU.

Clearly not.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

It's interesting that everyone's banging on about racism. It's almost a red herring.

Black kids have lower life chances than white kids in this country by a significant margin. That's not right.

All this rubbish of a load of white guys non-ironically discussing what racism is and isn't, is just ****ing waffle to avoid considering that fact.

But by all means carry on.

I think this is an excellent point well made. I would, however, be interested to know if these differences exist once social and economic status is taken into account, i.e. do white kids from poor inner-city backgrounds have better life chances than black kids in the same situation. And are black people in these conditions because of their race or because of issues of social mobility in Britain? I'm just interested, no agenda other than liking to get to the bottom of an issue. (and I wouldn't be surprised if the data show that race is a significant factor)

 

[ManOfSussex]

I never felt like I should apologise to people about dating her or anything like that, but there was a definite disapproval from around 70% of her friends, end of the day it was their issue, certainly not mine or hers.
I do remember being approached along western road by two black guys and they asked what business a honky had with a black girl and couldn't I find one of my own to date.
Obviously the flip side to that is I also met some very nice people in my time with her who were very welcoming and accepting of us. Swings and roundabouts I guess.

Me and my ex, met, dated, moved in together and married in Hastings, we never had a problem with anyone on the street or in a pub etc. In my experience our disapproval level was less than yours. That could be just chance, or perhaps the fact my ex wife's heritage was directly African, not Caribbean as your ex-girlfriends was, I don't know.

 

[spring hall convert]

I think this is an excellent point well made. I would, however, be interested to know if these differences exist once social and economic status is taken into account, i.e. do white kids from poor inner-city backgrounds have better life chances than black kids in the same situation. And are black people in these conditions because of their race or because of issues of social mobility in Britain? I'm just interested, no agenda other than liking to get to the bottom of an issue. (and I wouldn't be surprised if the data show that race is a significant factor)

Bingo. That's exactly the point I'm trying to get to. I have a hunch that race plays a part but even if you take race out of the picture we as a society need to be improving life chances for the disadvantaged. This by definition would improve the situation without the need of a load of white guys trying to prove how racist or non racist they are regardless of how well intentioned it is.

There is a problem, we ought to do something about it, not make excuses why we can't.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

I think this is an excellent point well made. I would, however, be interested to know if these differences exist once social and economic status is taken into account, i.e. do white kids from poor inner-city backgrounds have better life chances than black kids in the same situation. And are black people in these conditions because of their race or because of issues of social mobility in Britain? I'm just interested, no agenda other than liking to get to the bottom of an issue. (and I wouldn't be surprised if the data show that race is a significant factor)

A fair question and one that illustrates why discussion of this issue is very far from a red herring. If you are going to help people you need to know what is causing the problem.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Bingo. That's exactly the point I'm trying to get to. I have a hunch that race plays a part but even if you take race out of the picture we as a society need to be improving life chances for the disadvantaged. This by definition would improve the situation without the need of a load of white guys trying to prove how racist or non racist they are regardless of how well intentioned it is.

There is a problem, we ought to do something about it, not make excuses why we can't.

Hang on, who is making excuses ? you wrote that discussing the problem is a red herring. You are now discussing the problem. Of course we need to improve life chances for the disadvantaged but if we don't discuss and define those disadvantages we will not gain the necessary consensus to make whatever changes are necessary. I find your reference to the colour of my skin in this discussion rather offensive although I do know you don't mean any offence.

 

[carlzeiss]

Bypassing the discussions on the level of racism in the UK - and whether this protest is merited in the UK, my problem is why it's being held today.

Its the 5th anniversary of that drug dealing wannabe gangster Mark Duggan getting shot dead. No sympathy from me, unlike the John DeMenizes killing on the tube that was out of order in my view (and from what we know happened). It devalues the protest and whatever message they are trying to get across.

I guess this was a less destructive method of showing solidarity with gun wielding gangsters than looting Currys , foot locker etc

 

[mothy]

White lifestyles matter too

 

[Paul Reids Sock]

White lifestyles matter too

I know this was probably tongue in cheek but it reminded me of a good point someone made. Can't remember if I read it or saw it on tv.

In essence there is a restaurant full of people, everyone has a meal in front of them apart from Bob, Bob complains and says 'Bobs hunger matters'. Another person says 'My hunger matters too' the others agree, justify it and and carry on eating. Bob is still hungry and still doesn't have a meal

 

[BadFish]

Bingo. That's exactly the point I'm trying to get to. I have a hunch that race plays a part but even if you take race out of the picture we as a society need to be improving life chances for the disadvantaged. This by definition would improve the situation without the need of a load of white guys trying to prove how racist or non racist they are regardless of how well intentioned it is.

There is a problem, we ought to do something about it, not make excuses why we can't.

So what we really need is a group called 'poor lives matter' that way we can look at ways to address the factors that influence people of all races that live in poverty. To me this is a start, if groups like these can have a positive influence on people's lives then I don't see a problem with it.