[Politics] Is it OK to say racist things if you're not racist?

[Weststander]

I am happy that these types are being smoked out.

Yes, lickspittles make weasel defences ('He's not a racist'). And some daft-arse phoned R5 this morning to say that her dad used to say 'you should be shot' because he was in the army and it was just an expression and there are more important things going on in the world and we should move on.

But fewer and fewer people think like this. And yes, racism and sexism should be smoked out.

And in my view things are improving, despite 'noises off'.

I think of these things e.g. attitudes to mental health, as 80% plus who are decent people. I'm happy with that as base point, a huge improvement from say the 1950's in terms of racism, homophobia etc.

This overwhelming majority just to need to make sure that the Liz Truss's of this world never get power.

 

[dejavuatbtn]

Is it racist to describe someone with a different skin tone as ‘coloured’? Back in the 1960s/70s it was considered offensive to call people of Afro/Caribbean heritage ‘black’. Then it was okay and ‘coloured’ was considered offensive. I’m definitely not racist but confused as to which description is acceptable for any particular ethnic group. Thoughts?

In this world it is too easy to be politically incorrect, whether that is racism, sexism, antisemitism, whatever. I don’t like what Israel is doing - does that make me antisemitic? I have many Jewish friends. I don’t know.
I agree your concerns as to how Afro/Caribbean/African people should be referred to - keeping up with terminology is difficult and the older I get I find it harder to adjust to what is acceptable. I don’t consider myself to be racist, sexist etc but accept that if I say a wrong word I might cause someone, somewhere, some kind of offence. I don’t mean too.

 

[nicko31]

I am happy that these types are being smoked out.

Yes, lickspittles make weasel defences ('He's not a racist'). And some daft-arse phoned R5 this morning to say that her dad used to say 'you should be shot' because he was in the army and it was just an expression and there are more important things going on in the world and we should move on.

But fewer and fewer people think like this. And yes, racism and sexism should be smoked out.

And in my view things are improving, despite 'noises off'.

The Tories are fighting over a declining segment of the population with Reform, about 25-30% topside. Unless they get a grip it could be a long while in the wilderness

 

[Zeberdi]

The original story that broke in the Guardian if anyone missed it:

“The Guardian has learned of a 2019 meeting at TPP’s headquarters in which Hester spoke about an executive from another organisation, saying: “She’s shit. She’s the shittest person. Honestly I try not to be sexist but when I meet somebody like [the executive], I just …It’s like trying not to be racist but you see Diane Abbott on the TV and you’re just like, I hate, you just want to hate all black women because she’s there, and I don’t hate all black women at all, but I think she should be shot.

[The executive] and Diane Abbott need to be shot. She’s stupid … If we can get [the executive] being unprofessional we can get her sacked. It’s not as good as her dying. It would be much better if she died. She’s consuming resource. She’s eating food that other people could eat. You know?”

Surely when you are in a hole ….?

“On a separate occasion in 2019, Hester called everyone who was “foreign” among his employees to a meeting where he defended himself against online reviews said to be from former staff accusing him of racist remarks. In that meeting, he said: “I make a lot of jokes about racism, about our different creeds and cultures. But I just want to assure you that it is just the most abhorrent thing.”. He added: “I want to clear the air and make sure we all know where we are, what we stand for, and we take the piss out of the fact that all our Chinese girls sit together in Asian corner, which they do.”

Biggest Tory donor said looking at Diane Abbott makes you ‘want to hate all black women’

Exclusive: Remarks by Frank Hester, who has given £10m to the party in the past year, raise questions over his workplace behaviour

www.theguardian.com

Do we really want this company having system access to all our NHS medical records?

Hester’s ’apology’ on his X account




Hokey Dokey - offensive remarks about ‘foreigners’ (presumably he meant the British minorities he had working for him) - and wanting to ‘kill’ all ‘black’ women just because they remind him of Dianne Abbot is just being ‘rude’. Perhaps we should commend him at least for ‘trying not to be racist’.

The Tories should be ‘rude’ back and tell him to shove his donations where the sun don’t shine but they seem too busy at the moment dealing with the terrorist population of UK citizens with a Palestinian ethnicity and anyone else ‘trying to tear apart our democracy’

 

[happypig]

He can't be racist because he does business with people in Jamaica.
Probably calls curry house waiters "Gunga Din" for bantz.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Is it racist to describe someone with a different skin tone as ‘coloured’? Back in the 1960s/70s it was considered offensive to call people of Afro/Caribbean heritage ‘black’. Then it was okay and ‘coloured’ was considered offensive. I’m definitely not racist but confused as to which description is acceptable for any particular ethnic group. Thoughts?

Like with all issues in conversations, take the time to avoid acting on assumptions. With respect to 'colour', why call someone anything?

I can imagine a situation where you are chatting with a black person about Ian Wright, and they haven't heard of Ian Wright, and you then might start worrying whether you should say 'you know, the black ex footballer on the telly' or 'the coloured (etc.)

Except . . . if the black person you were talking to doesn't know who Ian Wright is, pontificating about Wright's 'colour' won't clarify the issue, will it?

So the need to invoke 'colour' or ethnicity or sexual orientation doesn't in fact often exist.
Julian Clary. The tall elegant and arch comedian who used to perform with fanny the dog? Or the gay comedian. Which description is the more recognizable? More to the point, which 'identifier' do you feel the need to reach for first?

I have tried an interesting exercise of selecting a description that does not reach for what I might have reached for first back in the 1960s. Former Palace cup finalist who went on to be an Arsenal legend and then a TV pundit with occasional appearances on MOTD. Glasses.
Sinister labour spin doctor who declared he is 'not a quitter' when he became Hartlepool MP.
Labour MP who lost the whip after downgrading anti-gypsy prejudice as not as serious as anti-black prejudice

If you are in a genuine quandary, why not just think a bit more before you open your gob? It' isn't rocket science

(Coloured became a rather twee eye-roll-inducing term many years ago. The actor Cumberbach was moved to apologize after using the term some years ago. Things move on. That's the way of things).

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

The Tories are fighting over a declining segment of the population with Reform, about 25-30% topside. Unless they get a grip it could be a long while in the wilderness

We can but hope.
When an argument is lost, lashing out at the nearest escape goat is such an unattractive look.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

We're talking about politicians and donors we're aren't we

But I think the answer is that, if you show genuine contrition and learning and own up to your other as yet not publicised comments, then it shouldn't lead to permanent ostracision from society. Maybe just a little spell on the sidelines is sufficient in these circumstances.

I agree, I have always said I don’t want to live in a world where we can’t/don’t forgive. But in any walk of life, and whatever f*** up, you have to earn forgiveness and demonstrate you are a better person.

What fucks people off in this situation is he says he’s sorry then the issue and discussion is immediately shut down and we’re told to move on. Of course, this is very convenient for all concerned.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Is it racist to describe someone with a different skin tone as ‘coloured’? Back in the 1960s/70s it was considered offensive to call people of Afro/Caribbean heritage ‘black’. Then it was okay and ‘coloured’ was considered offensive. I’m definitely not racist but confused as to which description is acceptable for any particular ethnic group. Thoughts?

If you’re confused about offending someone, my advice is to keep quiet.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I think of these things e.g. attitudes to mental health, I think of an 80% plus who are decent people. I'm happy with that as base point, a huge improvement from say the 1950's in terms of racism, homophobia etc.

This overwhelming majority just to need to make sure that the Liz Truss's of this world never get power.

Yep. I find I'm interacting with increasing numbers of lovely people and fewer and fewer dick heads.

And....people can learn and change.

And yes. We need to just make sure it is we that become emboldened (to call stuff out and make a stand), as an antidote to the noisy minority of cockwombles.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I agree, I have always said I don’t want to live in a world where we can’t/don’t forgive. But in any walk of life, and whatever f*** up, you have to earn forgiveness and demonstrate you are a better person.

What fucks people off in this situation is he says he’s sorry then the issue and discussion is immediately shut down and we’re told to move on. Of course, this is very convenient for all concerned.

Precisely. Genuine contrition should be respected and those willing to engage should be supported.

I recall Ron Atkinson making a 'learning about racism' TV programme after his on air 'gaffe' (racist rant), but he simply couldn't get his head around why his world view was wrong. His TV career somewhat stuttered after that. Probably for the best.

 

[Cordwainer]

The original story that broke in the Guardian if anyone missed it:

“The Guardian has learned of a 2019 meeting at TPP’s headquarters in which Hester spoke about an executive from another organisation, saying: “She’s shit. She’s the shittest person. Honestly I try not to be sexist but when I meet somebody like [the executive], I just …It’s like trying not to be racist but you see Diane Abbott on the TV and you’re just like, I hate, you just want to hate all black women because she’s there, and I don’t hate all black women at all, but I think she should be shot.

[The executive] and Diane Abbott need to be shot. She’s stupid … If we can get [the executive] being unprofessional we can get her sacked. It’s not as good as her dying. It would be much better if she died. She’s consuming resource. She’s eating food that other people could eat. You know?”

Surely when you are in a hole ….?

“On a separate occasion in 2019, Hester called everyone who was “foreign” among his employees to a meeting where he defended himself against online reviews said to be from former staff accusing him of racist remarks. In that meeting, he said: “I make a lot of jokes about racism, about our different creeds and cultures. But I just want to assure you that it is just the most abhorrent thing.”. He added: “I want to clear the air and make sure we all know where we are, what we stand for, and we take the piss out of the fact that all our Chinese girls sit together in Asian corner, which they do.”


Do we really want this company having system access to all our NHS medical records?

Hester’s ’apology’ on his X account




Hokey Dokey - offensive remarks about ‘foreigners’ (presumably he meant the British minorities he had working for him) - and wanting to ‘kill’ all ‘black’ women just because they remind him of Dianne Abbot is just being ‘rude’. Perhaps we should commend him at least for ‘trying not to be racist’.

The Tories should be ‘rude’ back and tell him to shove his donations where the sun don’t shine but they seem too busy at the moment dealing with the terrorist population of UK citizens with a Palestinian ethnicity and anyone else ‘trying to tear apart our democracy’

Standard non apology! Used the words black and women then states it wasn’t about gender or race??
Presume OBE stands for One Bigoted Englishman?

 

[MJsGhost]

Rather depends on the context doesn't it? Perfectly possible to say or write something that seems racist when it is cut out of it's wider context but is anything but when the wider context is taken into account.

It is also perfectly possible to say or write stuff that is racist irrespective of the wider context.

You're right about context being important.

Remember when BoJo was criticised for calling gay men BUMBOYS, comparing Muslim women to LETTERBOXES and describing black Africans as PICCANINNIES with WATERMELON SMILES?

It's really important to remember this in the context that the man's a f***ing c**t.

Having people like this in prominent positions, using racist language, repeating racist tropes and, let's face it, implementing arguably racist policies is what has empowered and emboldened the racist element of society. All because it's a useful distraction from the real reasons our country is going through a massive decline in living standards.

 

[Boys 9d]

I will continue to think that "coloured" is acceptable until one of the oldest and prominent (in the USA) civil rights organisation changes its name. I refer to "The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People".

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

In this world it is too easy to be politically incorrect, whether that is racism, sexism, antisemitism, whatever. I don’t like what Israel is doing - does that make me antisemitic? I have many Jewish friends. I don’t know.
I agree your concerns as to how Afro/Caribbean/African people should be referred to - keeping up with terminology is difficult and the older I get I find it harder to adjust to what is acceptable. I don’t consider myself to be racist, sexist etc but accept that if I say a wrong word I might cause someone, somewhere, some kind of offence. I don’t mean too.

We all get older. There is no need to give up the ghost and become set in whatever attitudes and customs prevailed the last time we went out and about. Keep your finger on the pulse or you will turn into a grumpy old git.

It is extremely easy to not cause offense. There is nothing to worry about. But if you have decided to not go out, not listen to decent radio and TV (GB news doesn't count), not engage with the world around you, and just hang out with other old gits, then you are not likely to encounter anyone to offend anyway

 

[beorhthelm]

(Coloured became a rather twee eye-roll-inducing term many years ago. The actor Cumberbach was moved to apologize after using the term some years ago. Things move on. That's the way of things).

the phrase "people/person of colour" has become popular correct term in recent years. this has led to confusion with those older or around older people, who remember the older phrase and use it by accident. then get censured for using such a term as being out of touch.
there is a movement from some in black community in US to stop using "people of colour "and "african american" and go with black or black american. they dont like other term because it lumps non-white or other groups togther, usually inappropriatly. black is accepted here. some see this all as distraction, by people taking offence on behalf of others or trouble makers who want an arguement rather than solve real problems.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

You're right about context being important.

Remember when BoJo was criticised for calling gay men BUMBOYS, comparing Muslim women to LETTERBOXES and describing black Africans as PICCANINNIES with WATERMELON SMILES?

It's really important to remember this in the context that the man's a f**ing c**t.

Having people like this in prominent positions, using racist language, repeating racist tropes and, let's face it, implementing arguably racist policies is what has empowered and emboldened the racist element of society. All because it's a useful distraction from the real reasons our country is going through a massive decline in living standards.

I can't argue with that. There is even a musical affirmation on Youtube, if anyone needs a reminder. Unusually for me I won't post the link.

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

I agree, I have always said I don’t want to live in a world where we can’t/don’t forgive. But in any walk of life, and whatever f*** up, you have to earn forgiveness and demonstrate you are a better person.

What fucks people off in this situation is he says he’s sorry then the issue and discussion is immediately shut down and we’re told to move on. Of course, this is very convenient for all concerned.

The problem is here he has apologised for being rude.

To even begin any path to redemption, he would have to say that he's sorry for being racist on this occasion and all other occasions

 

[WestYorkshireSeagull]

Is it racist to describe someone with a different skin tone as ‘coloured’? Back in the 1960s/70s it was considered offensive to call people of Afro/Caribbean heritage ‘black’. Then it was okay and ‘coloured’ was considered offensive. I’m definitely not racist but confused as to which description is acceptable for any particular ethnic group. Thoughts?

Fair point.
For ease of your conversations going forward...
"black" (rarely)
"Afro-Carribean" (more often)

But question WHY you need to define that aspect of someone when using these descriptive words. What's the need, purpose or aim.

x

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

the phrase "people/person of colour" has become popular correct term in recent years. this has led to confusion with those older or around older people, who remember the older phrase and use it by accident.
there is a movement from some in black community in US to stop using "people of colour "and "african american" and go with black or black american. they dont like other term because it lumps all non-white togther, usually inappropriatly. black is accepted here. some see this all as distraction, by people taking offence on behalf of others or trouble makers who want an arguement rather than solve real problems.

This is indeed all semantics until one considers your comment that I have highlighted. So, if we are going to ostracize and prosecute racism, perhaps we need to define our terms.

Except we don't. And I couldn't care less what self appointed 'organizations' are calling for.

Racism (and other isms) are self-defining. Calling someone a black **** is racist. Calling them a coloured **** is racists. Calling them a tinted **** is racist. And so on.

It is not the job of the wider world to define terminology, particularly racial epithets, and it has nothing to do with taking offense on behalf of others.

(And I hate that terminology - it is pernicious. If I expressed disapproval about a woman I have never met being raped, that is not taking offence on behalf of others. And yet it is exactly that according to the definition used by people who use the term as a means of abusing people who object to racism. Or sexism. Or homophobia. It is a useful trope for people who favour racism, sexism and homophobia.)

So chose your narrative a bit more carefully, please.