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[Politics] Is it OK to say racist things if you're not racist?



Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patron
Oct 8, 2003
56,707
Faversham
I think this might already be here. I was present relatively recently where someone was trying to describe someone else in our organisation. They mentioned eye-colour, height, hairstyle and so on and so on to try and illustrate who it was they were talking about.

Eventually someone else in the room piped up with 'for goodness sake - just say he's the black lad'. And to be honest, seeing as he was the only person of colour we have working for us - it was indeed the easiest way to identify him. But the person giving the description was so worried about using his colour as an identifier because they felt they would be singling him out purely because of this.
You miss my point entirely. I was referring to examples where the ethnicity or other generic characteristic was not remarkable and where the lazy 'go to' was unhelpful.

That black footy pundit.

You mean Alex Scott?

No! A bloke.

Micah Richards?

No!

Jermain Jenas?

No! Wears glasses!

Nedum Onuoha?

He doesn't wear Glasses!

Played for Arsenal

Thierry Henri?

No - English?

Not Ian Wright?

Yes!

He doesn't wear glasses!

He does, now.

 




Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patron
Oct 8, 2003
56,707
Faversham
But, apparently, he couldn't be a racist because he picked "the three degrees" for West Brom. He is/was an example of somebody brought up in a racist environment and seemingly oblivious to the fact.
When Obama was elected president and his inauguration was being shown on tV (with Jesse Jackson in tears in the audience) my late mum (a dear, sweet lady in her late 70's who volunteered at her local parish church and would never have considered herself to be racist inthe slightest) commented to me "they're getting a bit uppity, aren't they?". I asked her if she meant "the blacks" and was there any reason why a black man shouldn't be president. She reflected for a few moments (I could almost see the light going on in her head) and then said "I suppose that's a bit racist, isn't it?". I could see in her a realisation that she had been indoctrinated to think in that way (us v them, white v black) since the 60's when the Windrush generation arrived.
That sounds like an unlikely story but it happened exactly as I have described and shows that people can be unknowingly racist but also can become aware of this and act upon it .
Precisely. And that's how progress is made :thumbsup:
 


chip

Well-known member
Jul 7, 2003
1,335
Glorious Goodwood
The bigger question? Bigger than racism? Bigger than hundreds of millions of pounds in HMG contracts being awarded in return for a ten million pound political donation?

And you think that nobody would have noticed the graft had the racism hadn't come to light? Maybe you're right.

However if you think "He's a silly man who said a silly thing about a silly woman" then I'm going to call you silly.

Which in this context, as defined by you, means racist **** :thumbsup:
I'm often silly and stupid but I try to be honest, even with myself. It seems obvious that in a population of around 70M many are going to have views that involve protected characteristics and that ther will be many in positions of influence. We have two people in this case doing this now. Party funding is regularly in the spotlight, SNP recently, and yet nothing really changes. I don't recall this chap being mentioned in the PPE contract debacles, but that's my point.
 




Zeberdi

“Vorsprung durch Technik”
NSC Patron
Oct 20, 2022
7,212
Fair point.
For ease of your conversations going forward...
"black" (rarely)
"Afro-Carribean" (more often)


But question WHY you need to define that aspect of someone when using these descriptive words. What's the need, purpose or aim.

x
Just to clarify in case your post is misinterpreted- it would be offensive to call any one Afro-Caribbean unless they had an Afro-Carribean heritage/identity. Ie they are of African heritage but come from the Caribbean. I don’t know many A-Cs but do know a few and they say the majority of black people in the Caribbean don’t consider themselves black.

’Black’ is perfectly fine to call any black person from Africa or with African descent though when referring to them in conversation if it is relevant ie the fact they are black is pertinent to the discussion or point one wants to make.

It is not racist unless it is used in a way as to intend to cause harm ( psychological or physical) or it would be reasonably be likely to do so.
.
My family on one side is black ( not the side of the family that’s Jewish, that would be too much 😀) - not only do they strongly self-identify as ‘Black’ ( even though they are mixed race ) but would be offended if people circumvented mentioning their colour as if it were the elephant in the room. (We talk about a lot of ‘Black’ and ‘Jewish’ in our family 😎.)
 




nicko31

Well-known member
Jan 7, 2010
18,707
Gods country fortnightly
Massive OG by Sunak imho in this case.
Last week it was Anderson this week its a donor, they won't call it out, the R word is off limits. They are terrified if they do call it out more voters will go to Reform.
 


rippleman

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2011
5,027
Like with all issues in conversations, take the time to avoid acting on assumptions. With respect to 'colour', why call someone anything?

I can imagine a situation where you are chatting with a black person about Ian Wright, and they haven't heard of Ian Wright, and you then might start worrying whether you should say 'you know, the black ex footballer on the telly' or 'the coloured (etc.)

Except . . . if the black person you were talking to doesn't know who Ian Wright is, pontificating about Wright's 'colour' won't clarify the issue, will it?

So the need to invoke 'colour' or ethnicity or sexual orientation doesn't in fact often exist.
Julian Clary. The tall elegant and arch comedian who used to perform with fanny the dog? Or the gay comedian. Which description is the more recognizable? More to the point, which 'identifier' do you feel the need to reach for first?

I have tried an interesting exercise of selecting a description that does not reach for what I might have reached for first back in the 1960s. Former Palace cup finalist who went on to be an Arsenal legend and then a TV pundit with occasional appearances on MOTD. Glasses.
Sinister labour spin doctor who declared he is 'not a quitter' when he became Hartlepool MP.
Labour MP who lost the whip after downgrading anti-gypsy prejudice as not as serious as anti-black prejudice

If you are in a genuine quandary, why not just think a bit more before you open your gob? It' isn't rocket science :wink:

(Coloured became a rather twee eye-roll-inducing term many years ago. The actor Cumberbach was moved to apologize after using the term some years ago. Things move on. That's the way of things).
On a recent panel show Julian Clary described himself as "a comedian and renowned homosexual". That will do for me.

:lolol:

And Fanny was "the wonder dog"

Apologies. I've gone a bit OT but it's your fault mentioning Clary! I found his description of himself wonderfully amusing and refreshingly frank and direct.
 


Rogero

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2010
5,839
Shoreham
I think it strange that a theatre in London is only alllowing a black audience . Another odd thing but I completely understand its existence is that there is a black officer society in the police force . It wouldn’t be allowed the other way v. Just saying that I understand that they may have issues to discuss re behaviour.
 




Weststander

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Aug 25, 2011
69,878
Withdean area
Last week it was Anderson this week its a donor, they won't call it out, the R word is off limits. They are terrified if they do call it out more voters will go to Reform.

Big picture, this episode increases Starmer's majority.

Bad news for sensible centre right Tories, SNP, far left Starmer haters and hopefully the Michelle Mone types.
 


Thunder Bolt

Silly old bat
I think it strange that a theatre in London is only alllowing a black audience . Another odd thing but I completely understand its existence is that there is a black officer society in the police force . It wouldn’t be allowed the other way v. Just saying that I understand that they may have issues to discuss re behaviour.
There are many support groups within the police forces. Black, Jewish, Women, Pagan, Muslim, Disabled etc Is that a problem?

 


rippleman

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2011
5,027
There are many support groups within the police forces. Black, Jewish, Women, Pagan, Muslim, Disabled etc Is that a problem?

No - absolutely not if all "minorities" within the police have a support organisation.

Restricting access to a theatre production to just one minority group I am far less comfortable with.
 




Eeyore

Colonel Hee-Haw of Queen's Park
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Apr 5, 2014
26,330
I think it strange that a theatre in London is only alllowing a black audience . Another odd thing but I completely understand its existence is that there is a black officer society in the police force . It wouldn’t be allowed the other way v. Just saying that I understand that they may have issues to discuss re behaviour.
That is false.

For full context, read here. It was two nights out of a 30 day production and is not a wider policy. Having read into it, I see no issues.

 


Thunder Bolt

Silly old bat
No - absolutely not if all "minorities" within the police have a support organisation.

Restricting access to a theatre production to just one minority group I am far less comfortable with.
I just looked it up. Throughout the run of the play, there were just two nights where black people were invited to attend 17th July and 17th September, all the other nights were available to anyone, but even on those nights, nobody would be turned away. It was about slavery.
To be honest, it strikes me as a bit of a publicity stunt from the playwright.

 


Rogero

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2010
5,839
Shoreham
There are many support groups within the police forces. Black, Jewish, Women, Pagan, Muslim, Disabled etc Is that a problem?

No not a problem. That’s what I said I can understand it .
 




Zeberdi

“Vorsprung durch Technik”
NSC Patron
Oct 20, 2022
7,212
I think it strange that a theatre in London is only alllowing a black audience . Another odd thing but I completely understand its existence is that there is a black officer society in the police force . It wouldn’t be allowed the other way v. Just saying that I understand that they may have issues to discuss re behaviour.
That could be interpreted as a little passive aggressive at the idea that a play would be presented to a black audience or Blacks don’t have a need/right to share experiences of being a black policeman or just having a space to enjoy shared cultural or social interests.

People that have been complaining about all black theatre on social media/msm come across as harbouring feelings of white resentment that Blacks could have some sort of special treatment over whites/people of other colour? If so that would be based on a lack of understanding at what Black Out theatre is about. Or what ‘being Black’ means - it is not just skin colour but an intrinsic feature of someone’s identity - how they relate to the world and how the world relates to them.. black lives have narratives that are distinctly related to being black.

The furore about Black Out theatre in the media has been described as ’Culture-wars bollocks from hacks ignorant of how the arts work‘ by Time Out and I’m inclined to agree.

Black Out audiences came about from an initiative to present plays by Black playwrights (who specifically wrote with a black audience in mind about black narratives) in a space that wasn’t predominantly white.

White people are not banned from Black Out nights:. ‘Nobody is going to block admission to anyone. However there are literally dozens of non-Black Out performances so why would you go to a Black Out night if nobody in your group is Black unless you’re just being weird.’

I don’t expect NSC members to necessarily
appreciate the nuances or agree with anything I have said since NSC has a predominantly white membership ( and I have a different perspective as my immediate surviving family is predominantly black) but I’m just airing a voice that would otherwise probably not be heard on here.

 
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Lever

Well-known member
Feb 6, 2019
5,472
Apparently it is. If you apologize later.
And if you apologize later that means you're not racist
And if you're not racist we should all move on.

I'll remember that if I ever get the urge to punch someone hard in the face
If I then say 'I'm not a violent person' and apologize, I would expect to be allowed to move on.
Only if you are able to stuff millions of pounds in the gobs of the powerful to prevent any adverse outcome
 


WATFORD zero

Well-known member
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Jul 10, 2003
27,945
Is it racist to describe someone with a different skin tone as ‘coloured’? Back in the 1960s/70s it was considered offensive to call people of Afro/Caribbean heritage ‘black’. Then it was okay and ‘coloured’ was considered offensive. I’m definitely not racist but confused as to which description is acceptable for any particular ethnic group. Thoughts?

In this world it is too easy to be politically incorrect, whether that is racism, sexism, antisemitism, whatever. I don’t like what Israel is doing - does that make me antisemitic? I have many Jewish friends. I don’t know.
I agree your concerns as to how Afro/Caribbean/African people should be referred to - keeping up with terminology is difficult and the older I get I find it harder to adjust to what is acceptable. I don’t consider myself to be racist, sexist etc but accept that if I say a wrong word I might cause someone, somewhere, some kind of offence. I don’t mean too.

Well if you don't want to cause offence it's fairly simple with a little thought to avoid doing so.

And your comments show that you are both obviously alert to racial prejudice and discrimination which is a great starting point for avoiding causing offence :thumbsup:
 


Herr Tubthumper

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 11, 2003
63,026
The Fatherland
I will continue to think that "coloured" is acceptable until one of the oldest and prominent (in the USA) civil rights organisation changes its name. I refer to "The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People".
It's not quite a simple as this as some deem the name unacceptable. Given you now know this, will you continue with the knowledge that some people might be offended...or use another term which causes no offence?
 




Seagull58

In the Algarve
Jan 31, 2012
8,632
Vilamoura, Portugal
On a recent panel show Julian Clary described himself as "a comedian and renowned homosexual". That will do for me.

:lolol:

And Fanny was "the wonder dog"

Apologies. I've gone a bit OT but it's your fault mentioning Clary! I found his description of himself wonderfully amusing and refreshingly frank and direct.
Not as refreshing and direct as "fisting Norman Lamont".
 


dsr-burnley

Well-known member
Aug 15, 2014
2,681
If so that would be based on a lack of understanding at what Black Out theatre is about. Or what ‘being Black’ means - it is not just skin colour but an intrinsic feature of someone’s identity - how they relate to the world and how the world relates to them.. black lives have narratives that are distinctly related to being black.
That, I think, is where the anti-racists (with the best intentions) are storing up problems. Treating black people as a different caste from white people is not going to help.

I am an accountant, but being an accountant doesn't define me.
I am bald, but being bald doesn't define me.
I am overweight, but being overweight doesn't define me.
I am a Burnley supporter, but being a Burnley supporter doesn't define me.
I have pink skin, but having pink skin doesn't define me.

But if I had dark skin, then none of the other things would be even relevant because having dark skin would define me.

It's 60 years since Martin Luther King said that he wanted his children to be defined by the content of their character, not the colour of their skin. I don't think we're getting any closer.
 


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