[Politics] Is democracy in crisis?

[Pavilionaire]

I'm leaving party politics and my personal opinions aside when I post this, but it seems as though on either side of the Atlantic there is a widening gap between what politicians say in their election campaigning, and what they deliver when in power.

There was a time when you knew what Tory and Labour, Republican and Democrat stood for. They maintained core principles, but now those have become blurred and inconsistent.

We are told the US electorate cared most about the economy so elected Trump, rejecting some pretty good numbers in the context of the G20 re growth, unemployment, interest rates coming down. US voters believe Trump, yet if we take Trump at his word we know tariffs, lower taxes and plans for mass deportations will all be inflationary and interest rates will have to rise as a result. This will make things worse, not better, for the average US citizen.

He won't end the war in Ukraine or the Israel - Arab conflict in a matter of days, he won't end inflation, just like he didn't build a walls and make the Mexicans pay for it.

Similarly, Boris did not "Get Brexit Done" or "Take Back Control", Cameron stayed quiet in the 2010 campaign then immediately foisted austerity upon us, Lib Dems promised an end to tuition fees but did a 180, Labour stayed deliberately quiet in the 2024 campaign, then borrowed shitloads of cash and foisted huge NI increases on employers and higher tuition fees on the students that just voted for them. This disconnect between words and actions goes across the political spectrum.

We also seem to get every incoming government blaming the previous government, thus excusing all sorts of draconian action immediately they seize power.

And we just know Trump is going to get away without a custodial sentence despite all of his various crimes and misdemeanours, in the same way we know the Johnson government will get away with wasting billions and billions on dodgy Covid contracts, many of which enriched his party friends and associates.

And at the end of all this voters lose trust. Without trust what have you got? Who do you believe, and what basis have you got to really believe anything that they say?

 

[jcdenton08]

Well, where to begin! You start by saying this:

I'm leaving party politics and my personal opinions aside when I post this

But then make a number of assumptions and statements in the following paragraphs based on your subconscious personal beliefs:

And we just know Trump is going to get away without a custodial sentence despite all of his various crimes and misdemeanours, in the same way we know the Johnson government will get away with wasting billions and billions on dodgy Covid contracts, many of which enriched his party friends and associates.

As per the point I made on the election thread, we are seeing this through a largely liberal British cultural lens. It doesn’t take into account people’s opinions on the ground, which may seem completely alien to us, but are very real to those who agree with them.

There is an interesting article, in the Guardian I think, which talked about ethnic minority voters in swing state Michigan who turned their back on the Democrats, because they personally have seen their standard of living get worse under the Dems than it was under Trump. That’s their lives experience. One example being a dozen eggs going from $1-2 to $5 in the space of four years. They might be right about the cause and effect of Trump, they may be wrong, but that example is just one of many.

I personally hate Trump, but I can understand why people vote for him if they feel ignored or punished financially by the other lot. Factor in other issues alien to us like gun rights, fundamental Christianity and so on, and the majority of us can’t fathom why they’d choose Trump. But we aren’t being asked to.

Your wider point about lack of trust in politicians and politics generally is true, but it was ever thus. Being in opposition is easy, just criticise everything the government does and promise the moon on a stick. The shit only hits the fan once you actually win.

 

[Guinness Boy]

You can put the US down to "I'm happy with fascism so long as I can still drive a huge gas guzzler and get a takeaway the size of Belize for $9.99".

 

[Weststander]

There's a huge polarisation going on, exacerbated by the internet/media including nefarious players reveling in it (China and Russia).

Including heaps of hypocricy. James O'Brien mentioned this week about American voters being thick for blaming inflation on Biden when it was due to global events beyond the control of the US. When O'Brien had absolutely blamed UK inflation on the Tory government over the last two years, literally talking over or putting down anyone might differ.

I see these things all the time. People who confidently paint themselves as a right or left wing paragons of all virtues making it a better world, where in fact they too fan the flames.

All the above is very powerful. Shaping elections.

 

[nicko31]

Wait for climate to real take hold and it will.

1.5c of warming announced yesterday for the first time.

The global south is heading north as climate change created by rich countries takes hold.

Cue the wannabe fascists who say it doesn't exist, don't want to act and seems these grifters have all the answers lining their own pockets in the process

Yep, we're in trouble and I'm afraid its of our own making.

 

[A1X]

Democracy cannot survive in an era of social media and AI.

That might sound extreme, but I'm increasingly of that opinion. Politicians lying about stuff is nothing new and not a threat to democracy. But people being manipulated through actually fake content to act against their own wishes? That's new, it's scary and I don't see how democracy survives this.

And remember, the forces of democracy have to win every time. Those who seek to overturn democracy and rule through autocracy only need to be successful once.

 

[Napper]

Wait for climate to real take hold and it will.

1.5c of warming announced yesterday for the first time.

The global south is heading north as climate change created by rich countries takes hold.

Cue the wannabe fascists who say it doesn't exist, don't want to act and seems these grifters have all the answers lining their own pockets in the process

Yep, we're in trouble and I'm afraid its of our own making.

The earth used to be in the ice age

The planet has always continued to warm up

We just cry about it more now

 

[WATFORD zero]

I think the only thing that has changed in the last decade is that senior politicians now tell bare faced lies and, when caught out about it, simply say 'What are you going to do about it'.

Traditionally in the UK, it could be hard to pin politicians down and they would try and avoid answering questions, but if they were caught out lying, doing something illegal or immoral, they would resign. Look at the numbers who resigned from all flavours of Government when caught over the years.

Then came Trump and Johnson and Farage on this side of the pond who would just blatantly lie and then double down on it constantly. It quickly became apparent over here that because Parliament has never needed it, it had absolutely no way of handling a truly dishonest senior politician who had no sense of duty, responsibility or obligation to the Nation they represent. After the farce that was Truss, I still have some hope that with Sunak and Starmer we are now slowly moving away from that.

But in this manipulative social media age, Trump, Johnson and Farage have proven there's fortuness to be made, so I'm really not confident they'll achieve it.

Unfortunately it looks like the USA are doubling down on it

 

[nicko31]

You can put the US down to "I'm happy with fascism so long as I can still drive a huge gas guzzler and get a takeaway the size of Belize for $9.99".

Always been the same, a selfish nation that won't make any sacrifices at all. They consume like no other, kill themselves with obesity or kill each other with guns

 

[nicko31]

The earth used to be in the ice age

The planet has always continued to warm up

We just cry about it more now

It will be poorest that cry the most, but you carry on

 

[jcdenton08]

Then came Trump and Johnson and Farage on this side of the pond who would just blatantly lie and then double down on it constantly.

Clegg told just as many lies as any UK politician in recent history, and he was a Liberal. They’re all at it, not just the right wing.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Clegg told just as many lies as any UK politician in recent history, and he was a Liberal. They’re all at it, not just the right wing.

Out of interest what blatant lies did Clegg tell ?

 

[nicko31]

Out of interest what blatant lies did Clegg tell ?

Forever tuition fees, we're just not used to coalition governments as how they work

 

[jcdenton08]

Out of interest what blatant lies did Clegg tell ?

During his campaign he said he wouldn’t get into bed with the Tories. He did.

His main, constantly repeated number one policy promise was to freeze tuition fees - he didn’t. He grabbed power, then tripled them.

This betrayal to the people who got him into power (the student vote) not only led to a Tory majority at the next possible opportunity, and led to Lib Dem’s worst ever electoral performance, but also directly cost me personally more money than any government ever has or ever will. He lied.

He got a whiff of power, and showed his true colours.

 

[sparkie]

Shut down Facebook and Xwitter and perhaps some other apps or democracy will die.

It is Democracy or Social Media. It has been shown repeatedly that it can't be both.

Time to choose.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Forever tuition fees, we're just not used to coalition governments as how they work

That was the Lib Dems manifesto if they returned a majority Government which they didn't. As you rightly point out, some don't seem to understand that if you're the junior party in a coalition you can't actually implement your manifesto. All you can do is try and counter the extremes of the major parties manifesto and get some minor wins

 

[ManOfSussex]

Out of interest what blatant lies did Clegg tell ?

The number of women he said he slept with in that GQ interview he did.

 

[southstandandy]

Dunno. Ask someone who lives in 'The Democratic People's Republic of Korea'! They seem to like their leader - never been voted out yet!

 

[jcdenton08]

That was the Lib Dems manifesto if they returned a majority Government which they didn't. As you rightly point out, some don't seem to understand that if you're the junior party in a coalition you can't actually implement your manifesto. All you can do is try and counter the extremes of the major parties manifesto and get some minor wins

Nonsense. Clegg chose the Tories over Labour and made a deal which didn’t include the caveat about his primary policy - student loans. Labour/Miliband have subsequently said they were willing to work with Clegg and backed the student loan caveat.

Additionally, many Tories have since come out and said they can’t believe how little resistance the Libs put up to “counter the extremes” when in coalition government and they were considered a soft touch.

 

[HeaviestTed]

I'm leaving party politics and my personal opinions aside when I post this, but it seems as though on either side of the Atlantic there is a widening gap between what politicians say in their election campaigning, and what they deliver when in power.

There was a time when you knew what Tory and Labour, Republican and Democrat stood for. They maintained core principles, but now those have become blurred and inconsistent.

We are told the US electorate cared most about the economy so elected Trump, rejecting some pretty good numbers in the context of the G20 re growth, unemployment, interest rates coming down. US voters believe Trump, yet if we take Trump at his word we know tariffs, lower taxes and plans for mass deportations will all be inflationary and interest rates will have to rise as a result. This will make things worse, not better, for the average US citizen.

He won't end the war in Ukraine or the Israel - Arab conflict in a matter of days, he won't end inflation, just like he didn't build a walls and make the Mexicans pay for it.

Similarly, Boris did not "Get Brexit Done" or "Take Back Control", Cameron stayed quiet in the 2010 campaign then immediately foisted austerity upon us, Lib Dems promised an end to tuition fees but did a 180, Labour stayed deliberately quiet in the 2024 campaign, then borrowed shitloads of cash and foisted huge NI increases on employers and higher tuition fees on the students that just voted for them. This disconnect between words and actions goes across the political spectrum.

We also seem to get every incoming government blaming the previous government, thus excusing all sorts of draconian action immediately they seize power.

And we just know Trump is going to get away without a custodial sentence despite all of his various crimes and misdemeanours, in the same way we know the Johnson government will get away with wasting billions and billions on dodgy Covid contracts, many of which enriched his party friends and associates.

And at the end of all this voters lose trust. Without trust what have you got? Who do you believe, and what basis have you got to really believe anything that they say?

I’m going to ignore politics, when I’m asked to vote I will listen to what they say and vote - I’m staying a million miles from us politics, not my problem, nothing I can do about it.

My mental health can’t take this shit