India v England: Fourth Test, Wankhede Stadium, Mumbai 8-12 December

[ManOfSussex]

[MENTION=34106]ManOfSussex[/MENTION] [MENTION=25]Gwylan[/MENTION] [MENTION=14921]spring hall convert[/MENTION]

The last England batsman to score a century and be dropped from the next test was Hick in 1998. Having scored a ton against Sri Lanka at The Oval he was dropped for the first Test of the Australia tour.

It's Kevin Pietersen in 2012 though? He scored a hundred at Headingley in the 2nd test against South Africa, sent his text messages and was dropped for the 3rd test at Lords - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/19232767

 

[Machiavelli]

Of course. And clearly it may be premature but it appears we may have just found two. I just think Ali is playing two roles not quite well enough at the moment, I think he is more likely to make it as a Test Match 5, good occasional bowler than he is as a Test Match 8 and frontline spinner.

If Rashid continues to impress, I foresee a scenario where England fudge a selection playing Rashid and Ali in a home test series with Ali batting at 5. The pressure will then be on him to start making runs consistently. If Rashid were to start chucking pies again, I'd ber looking to replace him with a specialist spinner and using Ali in that role as a last resort.

I did concede that we might/appear to have just found two. But the scenario seems to be punishing Moeen because circumstances have moved him up the order, and he hasn't proved himself as a number 5 or 4 in the Indian sub-continent. The other problem is that, even if these two do it in the long-term, we still need another specialist batsman.
I have my doubts about him as a number 5, largely down to temperament. He tends to get himself out, which is not what specialist batsmen should do. He can be devastating, and he's better suited to lower in the order. But our lower order is looking increasingly strong. It might be the case that we want to play four specialist batsmen, two specialist bowlers (Broad and Anderson, if still fit and on-song), and then five all-rounders, some of which are better at bowling (Woakes, Rashid), others of which are better at batting (Moeen, Bairstow), and then Stokes who seems pretty good at both.

 

[spring hall convert]

I did concede that we might/appear to have just found two. But the scenario seems to be punishing Moeen because circumstances have moved him up the order, and he hasn't proved himself as a number 5 or 4 in the Indian sub-continent. The other problem is that, even if these two do it in the long-term, we still need another specialist batsman.
I have my doubts about him as a number 5, largely down to temperament. He tends to get himself out, which is not what specialist batsmen should do. He can be devastating, and he's better suited to lower in the order. But our lower order is looking increasingly strong. It might be the case that we want to play four specialist batsmen, two specialist bowlers (Broad and Anderson, if still fit and on-song), and then five all-rounders, some of which are better at bowling (Woakes, Rashid), others of which are better at batting (Moeen, Bairstow), and then Stokes who seems pretty good at both.

Yeah, look, it's quite a nice problem to have!

Just that with Bairstow, Stokes and Woakes looking permanent fixtures at the moment who all get in the team on the basis of one or both of their skills, I just don't think the team needs another all rounder unless that all rounder is good enough to bat 5 (you could argue Bairstow could but England ideally want their keeper to bat 7, fair enough) or be spinner that either a) wins test matches when conditions are in their favour or b) is capable of bowling long frugal spells.

I don't think Ali has been punished, I think there should be a realisation that in a team as stocked with all rounders as we are there is no real excuse for not playing a) The best spinner available to us & b) The best number 5 available to us. I concede that Moeen is probably still our best option at 5 but should Habib, Jennings & Rashid keep their places and prosper, Moeen is under big pressure. It seems to me his long term future in this side is at 5, a role that on the evidence so far he isn't suited for.

 

[Marshy]

I'm willing to bet Moeen's batting average for 2016 is very good, and a vast improvement on his 34 test average.

I recall he has scored quite a lot of runs this year ?.....

 

[spring hall convert]

I'm willing to bet Moeen's batting average for 2016 is very good, and a vast improvement on his 34 test average.

I recall he has scored quite a lot of runs this year ?.....

Here's his year

0* 10* v South Africa Cape Town 2 Jan 2016 Test # 2197
19 DNB v South Africa Johannesburg 14 Jan 2016 Test # 2199
61 10* v South Africa Centurion 22 Jan 2016 Test # 2200
0 - v Sri Lanka Leeds 19 May 2016 Test # 2203
155* DNB v Sri Lanka Chester-le-Street 27 May 2016 Test # 2204
25 9 v Sri Lanka Lord's 9 Jun 2016 Test # 2205
23 2 v Pakistan Lord's 14 Jul 2016 Test # 2206
2* DNB v Pakistan Manchester 22 Jul 2016 Test # 2208
63 86* v Pakistan Birmingham 3 Aug 2016 Test # 2212
108 32 v Pakistan The Oval 11 Aug 2016 Test # 2216
68 14 v Bangladesh Chittagong 20 Oct 2016 Test # 2225
10 0 v Bangladesh Dhaka 28 Oct 2016 Test # 2227
117 DNB v India Rajkot 9 Nov 2016 Test # 2232
1 2 v India Visakhapatnam 17 Nov 2016 Test # 2235
16 5 v India Mohali 26 Nov 2016 Test # 2238
50 - v India Mumbai 8 Dec 2016 Test # 223

I make it 572 @ 38
283 @ 28.3 batting up this winter.

Interestingly his average is much better home than away - it sneaks over 40.

The bowling returns have simply not been good enough.

 

[Machiavelli]

Yeah, look, it's quite a nice problem to have!

Just that with Bairstow, Stokes and Woakes looking permanent fixtures at the moment who all get in the team on the basis of one or both of their skills, I just don't think the team needs another all rounder unless that all rounder is good enough to bat 5 (you could argue Bairstow could but England ideally want their keeper to bat 7, fair enough) or be spinner that either a) wins test matches when conditions are in their favour or b) is capable of bowling long frugal spells.

I don't think Ali has been punished, I think there should be a realisation that in a team as stocked with all rounders as we are there is no real excuse for not playing a) The best spinner available to us & b) The best number 5 available to us. I concede that Moeen is probably still our best option at 5 but should Habib, Jennings & Rashid keep their places and prosper, Moeen is under big pressure. It seems to me his long term future in this side is at 5, a role that on the evidence so far he isn't suited for.

Can't disagree with any of this, but as you well know the issue is whether replacements step up to the plate.
I'd much rather have Bairstow higher up the order than Moeen, because the former seems to have a better temperament, can dig in if necessary, and is more adaptable according to circumstances (all those three points are admittedly more-or-less saying the same thing).

 

[Pavilionaire]

Amazing debut by the lad Jennings, bit of grit and fight there like previous England greats Pietersen, Trott and Lamb.

 

[big nuts]

Would quite fancy this team for England in Asia or other turning wickets.

1.Hameed
2.Jennings
3.Cook
4.Root
5.Bairstow (wk)
6.Stokes
7.Ali
8.Woakes
9.Rashid
10.Broad
11.Anderson

In England in the summer I would bring Bell in for Rashid or Ali at number 5 and drop everyone from Bairstow down, down one in the order.

 

[spring hall convert]

In England in the summer I would bring Bell in for Rashid or Ali at number 5 and drop everyone from Bairstow down, down one in the order.

If (and it's a big if granted) Rashid continues to be the pick of the English spinners in these last two tests, I think it would be exceedingly harsh to drop him. Perhaps he could help his case with some runs as well in the meantime.

Bell didn't pull up any trees last summer. I'd imagine Gubbins or another look at Duckett in English conditions would be well ahead of him.

 

[Eeyore]

It's Kevin Pietersen in 2012 though? He scored a hundred at Headingley in the 2nd test against South Africa, sent his text messages and was dropped for the 3rd test at Lords - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/19232767

As I said, prior to Kevin Pieterson, who was the last England batsman to score a century and be dropped from the next test ?

 

[ManOfSussex]

As I said, prior to Kevin Pieterson, who was the last England batsman to score a century and be dropped from the next test ?

You did.

 

[jakarta]

Gubbins must play for England, if only for his name...

 

[Garry Nelson's teacher]

The pitch looks like a turner. Send for Batty forthwith!

 

[Garry Nelson's teacher]

Would quite fancy this team for England in Asia or other turning wickets.

1.Hameed
2.Jennings
3.Cook
4.Root
5.Bairstow (wk)
6.Stokes
7.Ali
8.Woakes
9.Rashid
10.Broad
11.Anderson

In England in the summer I would bring Bell in for Rashid or Ali at number 5 and drop everyone from Bairstow down, down one in the order.

Quite like the look of this line-up. The challenge might well be getting Broad and Anderson fit at the same time. I'd probably split the two youngsters you've got opening and move Cook up your order to open.

 

[ManOfSussex]

Quite like the look of this line-up. The challenge might well be getting Broad and Anderson fit at the same time. I'd probably split the two youngsters you've got opening and move Cook up your order to open.

I would too. I'd have Jennings at 3 but it could end up being any one of them.

 

[Eeyore]

I would too. I'd have Jennings at 3 but it could end up being any one of them.

Agreed. No way Cook should move from the opening slot. Hameed has a far more stable temperament than Jennings. Hameed is in for the long haul. Jennings did well today, but was very shaky early on and a bit fortunate with some of his shot selection. Jury will be out for a while.

 

[knocky1]

Morning. Good start for Ashwin as Stokes bat hits the ground and maybe the ball hits the edge. C. Kohli on review.
Our world class spinners could still win this for us.....

 

[knocky1]

Umpires call. India badly use their second and last review with the new and spinning ball.
309-6

 

[knocky1]

Woakes pokes at ball spinning away and walks.

At 320-7 I think another 50 would be a competitive total for us.

 

[knocky1]

Rashid didn't hang around so he can get ready for a brilliant example of test bowling. Ball can hopefully bowl as well as he can bat at no10.

357-8