[Albion] I’m now pro VAR - disgraceful officiating

[trueblue]

There's an article by Keith Hackett in todays Torygraph

Some excerpts:-

......VAR clearly isn’t the solution to all our problems if used incorrectly, as was the case at Molineux. The issue here was a sliding challenge by Manchester United centre-half Victor Lindelof on Wolves’ Diogo Jota as he broke away down the wing. It was a poor tackle and Martin Atkinson, a very experienced referee, deemed it worthy of a red card. That decision was downgraded to a yellow card by the official behind the TV screen, who on this occasion was Kavanagh - a man who had to referee his own game at the Den a little more than 15 hours later.

I think Martin got the call right, and I cannot see how Kavanagh overruled him. Law 12 states a red card must be shown “when a player exceeds the necessary use of force and/or endangers the safety of an opponent”, which I thought Lindelof did. We must also remember that VAR should only be used to overturn “clear and obvious errors” and I do not see how Martin’s decision was in any way a clear and obvious error..

Totally with Keith Hackett on this one. Lindelof went right through the player to get the ball. A modern day, text book red card. On Twitter he's been making the point that because we're not giving the ref a pitch-side monitor here, you've got far less experienced officials over-ruling some of the very best we've got (which is not saying much at the moment, sadly). I hate the way the pitch-side monitor brings everything to a halt - but I can see his point. That's a problem.

 

[Gritt23]

We’d have won that in 90 with VAR. Poorest officials this season by a marathon


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

And we'd have Swansea in the Semi-Final.

 

[Berty23]

Do we know if Harris has apologised for his obvious foul mouth tirade at fourth official about the one decision they got right, the red card. Disgusting stamp (I won’t call it a challenge because it wasn’t) and should be condemned not defended. Hopefully he is man enough to say “oops, sorry. I got one wrong there”

 

[hans kraay fan club]

And we'd have Swansea in the Semi-Final.

Only if we'd beaten Everton yesterday...

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Do we know if Harris has apologised for his obvious foul mouth tirade at fourth official about the one decision they got right, the red card. Disgusting stamp (I won’t call it a challenge because it wasn’t) and should be condemned not defended. Hopefully he is man enough to say “oops, sorry. I got one wrong there”

Harris "the fourth official has told me it was a stamp. There's no place for that on my football pitch, and if he has then we'll be punishing him severely"

So, no - no actual apology.

 

[Triggaaar]

Have always wanted VAR. We’ll still moan, but 90% of blatant errors will disappear.

Exactly. There will still be some bad decisions that affect results, but they'll be going some to do as badly as the officials yesterday.

We should be playing Swansea in the semi-final.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

There's an article by Keith Hackett in todays Torygraph

Some excerpts:-

......VAR clearly isn’t the solution to all our problems if used incorrectly, as was the case at Molineux. The issue here was a sliding challenge by Manchester United centre-half Victor Lindelof on Wolves’ Diogo Jota as he broke away down the wing. It was a poor tackle and Martin Atkinson, a very experienced referee, deemed it worthy of a red card. That decision was downgraded to a yellow card by the official behind the TV screen, who on this occasion was Kavanagh - a man who had to referee his own game at the Den a little more than 15 hours later.

I think Martin got the call right, and I cannot see how Kavanagh overruled him. Law 12 states a red card must be shown “when a player exceeds the necessary use of force and/or endangers the safety of an opponent”, which I thought Lindelof did. We must also remember that VAR should only be used to overturn “clear and obvious errors” and I do not see how Martin’s decision was in any way a clear and obvious error.


On our game Hackett says

There is no doubt that Brighton would have had real cause for complaint if they had not gone through at the Den. I felt there were clear fouls on defenders in the build-up to both Millwall goals, with the first one on Glenn Murray particularly obvious. Referee Chris Kavanagh and his assistants should have spotted them but that is what VAR is for - to ensure human errors like that do not lead to game-changing incidents.

Brighton then got back on level terms and thought they had won the game in the last moments of extra-time when Jurgen Locadia swept home Martin Montoya’s pull-back, only for the latter to be incorrectly ruled offside by assistant referee Sian Massey-Ellis. It was another poor error and one that VAR would have overturned instantly.

Credit to Kavanagh for seeing the horrendous challenge by Shane Ferguson on Lewis Dunk and correctly sending the Millwall player off, but this was a bad day at the office where VAR would undoubtedly have proved useful.


Kavanagh had quite a weekend. Needs to go for refresher training fairly urgently.

I thought VAR was there to tell the referee there might be an incorrect decision. The referee then views the footage and either stands by his decision or changes it because he's made a mistake as shown by the replay.

I did not think the VAR ref had the authority to overrule the referee.

Fwiw, I think Atkinson was correct to issue the red card and cannot see how a tackle like that was only a yellow.

 

[Steve in Japan]

I thought VAR was there to tell the referee there might be an incorrect decision. The referee then views the footage and either stands by his decision or changes it because he's made a mistake as shown by the replay.

I did not think the VAR ref had the authority to overrule the referee.

Fwiw, I think Atkinson was correct to issue the red card and cannot see how a tackle like that was only a yellow.

Agreed

More from Hackett, pretty damning:-

In addition, I would like to know why we seem to be the only country in the world that gives the VAR authority over the referee, rather than allowing the official to review their own decision on a screen at the side of the pitch. In every other competition, including the World Cup and Champions League, the referee is asked to have another look and make the final call themselves whereas in England we seem to have decided to tell them they’re wrong. It’s crazy and I don’t know how it’s happened.

In summary, it is a complete mess whether or not you have the technology, and English football suffers as a result. I have had top international referees from other countries call me and ask what we are playing at, and I can’t answer them. Standards have fallen and weekends like this show us all in a very poor light. Here’s hoping we get our house in order because at the moment it simply isn’t good enough.

 

[kjgood]

Didn’t miss it. Chose to not give it.

So much reactionary refereeing. Delighted we went through and hope Kavanagh gets investigated.

I didnt see the handball my head was in my hands at the time.

 

[fleet]

So many games this season have gone against us with bad decisions, in theory they even out, but VAR has to come in some format. Yesterday would have been hard to take if we had lost given how bad the officials were. I just hope it can come n without disrupting the flow. My fear is that you will not be able to celebrate a goal until 5 mins after when the TV has decided! That would take the emotion out of it.

 

[trueblue]

I thought VAR was there to tell the referee there might be an incorrect decision. The referee then views the footage and either stands by his decision or changes it because he's made a mistake as shown by the replay.

I did not think the VAR ref had the authority to overrule the referee.

Fwiw, I think Atkinson was correct to issue the red card and cannot see how a tackle like that was only a yellow.

I think the decision not to have a pitch-side monitor was reached with the best intentions - to minimise the interruption from VAR. I'm all for that as the time it's taking in some leagues and European football is ridiculous. But we just haven't got enough good refs for it to work, it seems.

 

[Two Professors]

Just watched the game again,and the ref actually didn't seem as bad as I thought.He was badly let down by the lino,Sian,but fair play to the bloke for supporting his officials.Just glad we got through despite them,as after-match reviews don't correct the result.

 

[GT49er]

I thought VAR was there to tell the referee there might be an incorrect decision. The referee then views the footage and either stands by his decision or changes it because he's made a mistake as shown by the replay.

I did not think the VAR ref had the authority to overrule the referee.

I don't know whether this is the case or not, but it absolutely 100% it should not be.

VAR, in my opinion should only be used for the VAR ref to tell the referee if he has made a clear and obvious error, or has missed seeing something altogether. Nothing else.
Marginal offsides, opinions about whether a tackle merited a red or a yellow - the VAR should keep his nose out of it.
I would like it to be an automatic yellow (or even a red) for players making the TV screen gesture, or otherwise demanding that the ref. consult VAR - in fact, I'd go further - I wouldn't allow the ref access to VAR for a second opinion. The communication channel should only be opened by the VAR ref, in cases of clear and obvious error or something missed.
And finally, the ultimate decision to accept the VAR referee's input - or not - should rest with on field referee (after looking at the video of the event the VAR ref was referring to, if appropriate).

 

[dazzer6666]

I don't know whether this is the case or not, but it absolutely 100% it should not be.

VAR, in my opinion should only be used for the VAR ref to tell the referee if he has made a clear and obvious error, or has missed seeing something altogether. Nothing else.
Marginal offsides, opinions about whether a tackle merited a red or a yellow - the VAR should keep his nose out of it.
I would like it to be an automatic yellow (or even a red) for players making the TV screen gesture, or otherwise demanding that the ref. consult VAR - in fact, I'd go further - I wouldn't allow the ref access to VAR for a second opinion. The communication channel should only be opened by the VAR ref, in cases of clear and obvious error or something missed.
And finally, the ultimate decision to accept the VAR referee's input - or not - should rest with on field referee (after looking at the video of the event the VAR ref was referring to, if appropriate).

Agree, more or less. Decision should be with the ref as much as possible IMO, like :

-ref can request a VAR if he’s unsure, but with a ‘soft’ decision already made (ie ‘is there any reason I shouldn’t give a straight red for that challenge’....’I’m giving the goal but can you check the offside for me’ etc)

-VAR ref only intervenes if something happens that the ref misses completely (rugby tackle on Murray on Sunday for example)

Def agree any player calling for a review should be booked too.

 

[GT49er]

Agree, more or less. Decision should be with the ref as much as possible IMO, like :

-ref can request a VAR if he’s unsure, but with a ‘soft’ decision already made (ie ‘is there any reason I shouldn’t give a straight red for that challenge’....’I’m giving the goal but can you check the offside for me’ etc)

-VAR ref only intervenes if something happens that the ref misses completely (rugby tackle on Murray on Sunday for example)

Def agree any player calling for a review should be booked too.

My objection to referees being able to refer to VAR would be that before long every referee would be referring every goal for a second opinion, just in case - all cards and tackles too - and VAR would then actually become the nightmare we all fear, games going on for ages, always waiting to see if we could cheer a goal, etc.

 

[Simster]

Harris "the fourth official has told me it was a stamp. There's no place for that on my football pitch, and if he has then we'll be punishing him severely"

So, no - no actual apology.

Well that isn't an apology but we don't know he hasn't apologised in private. Given the vitriol he showed on the touch line, I wouldn't be surprised if he later apologised privately once the dust settled. I don't think we have any reason to believe Harris is that much of a cvnt not to have done so.

 

[Simster]

Hackett was a decent ref in his day and his verdict is particularly damning. I just don't understand how we can make such a mess of using potentially such an excellent resource.

It should be used to clear up clear and obvious errors. It should be used to clear up offside decisions because there ought not to be any ambiguity there - you're either offside or you're not. And finally, VAR should be used to make penalty decisions, to which end FIFA really need to clear up what constitutes a handball and how it should be penalised. Personally I think unless a handball in the area blocks a shot that could feasibly end up with a goal, it should be a direct free kick inside the area.

 

[darkwolf666]

I have posed the question several times now. Do fans want VAR and all the possible implications espoused here, or would they just prefer goal line technology to avoid travesties like Frank Lampard’s non goal against Germany. It’s a bit like the other big issue of the day, I don’t think the current version of VAR is what the fans would have voted for...

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Hackett was a decent ref in his day and his verdict is particularly damning. I just don't understand how we can make such a mess of using potentially such an excellent resource.

It should be used to clear up clear and obvious errors. It should be used to clear up offside decisions because there ought not to be any ambiguity there - you're either offside or you're not. And finally, VAR should be used to make penalty decisions, to which end FIFA really need to clear up what constitutes a handball and how it should be penalised. Personally I think unless a handball in the area blocks a shot that could feasibly end up with a goal, it should be a direct free kick inside the area.

Not all handballs are ‘blocked shots’ though. Blocking a cross is just as worthy of a penalty. Then there’s the completely different ones, like the Hendrick Burnley one - entirely deliberate act to scoop the ball away from Murray, but even though there was no real chance at that instance, it’s still a cast iron penalty. IMO.

 

[zefarelly]

Goal line tech definitely
offside tech, definitely
dirty ******* 4th official watch yes.
The ref and linesmen need to up their game too.