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How do you think Boris has handled it so far ?

How do you think Boris has handled Covid 19 so far ?

  • Superb

    Votes: 27 10.8%
  • Very Good

    Votes: 63 25.1%
  • Good

    Votes: 56 22.3%
  • Average

    Votes: 22 8.8%
  • Poor

    Votes: 44 17.5%
  • Very Poor

    Votes: 39 15.5%

  • Total voters
    251
  • Poll closed .






GT49er

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Feb 1, 2009
49,065
Gloucester
Operation Cygnus would appear to give a lie to the fact that the government had no time to make preparations. It was warned in October 2016 that the NHS wouldn't cope in the event of a pandemic so consulted the experts and professionals in the field and took their advice.

Corrected for you. Anyway, what's that got to do with "How do you think Boris has handled it so far?"
 




Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patron
Oct 8, 2003
55,851
Faversham
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...ncovered-pandemic-warnings-buried-government/

Operation Cygnus would appear to give a lie to the fact that the government had no time to make preparations. It was warned in October 2016 that the NHS wouldn't cope in the event of a pandemic but chose to ignore it.

That's a different kind of preparedness. In my view this is irrelevant in the present context. Modellers (for it is they) can model any catastrophe, with a model containing multiple variables which they can alter: infectivity, virulence, severity of symptoms, effects of age and illness, effects of mild, moderate or severe social restrictions. Even the bloody weather. This means that for Covid-19, which has one of several hundred possible characteristics as a virus, there are a power function of possible outcomes as each other variable is changed. This means there are thousands of possible responses to a viral pandemic, dependent on the characteristics of the virus and what measures people are prepared to accept to mitigate against the contagion.

So in simple terms, you cannot plan for 'a' pandemic.

As far as the NHS is concerned, that is a different matter. Yes I agree it has been underfunded.

It has been my view that because the tories vehemently opposed the creation of the NHS, and despite one nation tories embracing it later, most tories have always thought private is acceptable, or preferable, or best, so tories have been happy to see the NHS decline. Blair aided and abetted in that as part of his strategy to make labour look business friendly.

The NHS is a socialist entity, and the emergent Thatcheriste tories were instinctively opposed to it. So, underfunding it in order to encourage those with the cash to go private really kicked in in the 80s, and this undermines the NHS further. This process has become so engrained that most tories these days probably don't realise it is happening.

As I have said before, if I were a tory I would seek to undermine the NHS, the BBC and state schooling - all are 'wrong 'uns' of entities. It is a testament to how mentally agile (or weird) we are as humans, forgetting our roots, the ideas that created our politics, letting bygones be bygones, etc., that very few people actively campaign now against the NHS, yet nor do most realise how much it has been damaged by underfunding and the waves of 'reorganizations' (designed to save money).

But my guess is that needs must, and a tory government will now bung insane amounts of money into the NHS. Perhaps another example of unintended consequemces.
 


GT49er

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Feb 1, 2009
49,065
Gloucester
Perhaps how he's handling it so far has been impacted by ignoring the warnings in Operation Cygnus, something he was, presumably, aware of?

As Foreign Secretary, a post he was deliberately given to keep him quiet, possibly not that much. Wouldn't have been involved in the decision, perhaps?
 




Bakero

Languidly clinical
Oct 9, 2010
14,861
Almería
No, you didn't, but some people (as stated in my post) did.

The idea that the Government spent weeks sitting on their hands with their fingers in their ears is almost on a level with the bloke who claimed they had years/decades to prepare :)facepalm:). They were following the advice of the experts. Surely you didn't expect the Boris Johnson or Rishi Sunak to be virology experts? - it's not one of the normal qualifications one would expect for the leaders of a country.

You are of course right that in a situation of this nature the government has to be guided by experts. The response still seemed flawed to me though. From the public awareness campaign to ramping up testing capabilities to ventilator acquisition. Perhaps we need new experts.

This isn't an anti-tory thing; I said the same about Spain's leftist government. The day before the schools were shut down I was at the doctor's with my partner and there wasn't so much as a wash your hands poster on display.


I should add, this has just been my personal perception. I'm very much viewing it in layman's terms, though I feel I've kept myself well informed throughout.
 
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Herr Ing Gull

Active member
Sep 3, 2014
77
That's a different kind of preparedness. In my view this is irrelevant in the present context. Modellers (for it is they) can model any catastrophe, with a model containing multiple variables which they can alter: infectivity, virulence, severity of symptoms, effects of age and illness, effects of mild, moderate or severe social restrictions. Even the bloody weather. This means that for Covid-19, which has one of several hundred possible characteristics as a virus, there are a power function of possible outcomes as each other variable is changed. This means there are thousands of possible responses to a viral pandemic, dependent on the characteristics of the virus and what measures people are prepared to accept to mitigate against the contagion.

So in simple terms, you cannot plan for 'a' pandemic.
.

This is all true BUT this is why an essential part of emergency planning involves exercises. So when a googly turns up the people in charge have some experience of how to respond. Also I expect there will be aspects that will be common to all pandemics and can be planned for; basic PPE springs to mind.

My expertise wasn't with pandemics but explosions, gas clouds and suchlike and if someone had held an exercise (operation cygnet perhaps), found a failing and not done something about it I'd have been looking for the Enforcement Notice template


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 


GT49er

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Feb 1, 2009
49,065
Gloucester
You are of course right that in a situation of this nature the government has to be guided by experts. The response still seemed flawed to me though. From the public awareness campaign to ramping up testing capabilities to ventilator acquisition. Perhaps we need new experts.

This isn't an anti-tory thing; I said the same about Spain's leftist government. The day before the schools were shut down I was at the doctor's with my partner and there wasn't so much as a wash your hands poster on display.
Yeh, that's a fair enough opinion. I guess that once we're through this what we'll never know is what differences different strategies and actions would have made - would strategy X have been better than strategy Y - or would it have made it worse?
 




nicko31

Well-known member
Jan 7, 2010
18,506
Gods country fortnightly


Wozza

Custom title
NSC Patron
Jul 6, 2003
24,345
Minteh Wonderland
Why not join the next cabinet meeting on (encrypted) Zoom and tell them what you think?

EUcUBu6XgAcHo93.jpg

Image/details courtesy of bungling Boris. https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1244985949534199808?s=20
 


nicko31

Well-known member
Jan 7, 2010
18,506
Gods country fortnightly
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dazzer6666

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Mar 27, 2013
55,365
Burgess Hill

It is if you use its features properly (at least that's what we've been told). Encryption enabled, guests need permission to enter from host (and a password if required by the host), only attendees with a given email domain can join etc.
 




Machiavelli

Well-known member
Oct 11, 2013
17,735
Fiveways
No we didn't. It had already happened in China before we knew anything about it. The WHO first recognised it on 31st. December; the first case in the UK occurred in late January - less than a month later. The first death was recorded 6 weeks further on. Some people's definition of 'months of warning' is seriously skewed by their own agenda..

You may have got some thumbs up for this, but a London-based epidemiologist for FIND, Rangarajan Sampath, that advises the government who also works for WHO has just indicated on C4 News that he was advising the government to buy tests, scale up production, etc, etc in early January. See:

https://www.channel4.com/news/25000...ng-to-be-adequate-finds-dr-rangarajan-sampath
 


Machiavelli

Well-known member
Oct 11, 2013
17,735
Fiveways
This.

Even now it is not clear what the best strategy might be, either in political or scientific terms. It is deffo a case of suck it and see. The modellers show that a complete lockdown would have suppressed the size and delayed the hight of the peak massively. But with that there would be a late second massive peak in October/November. That means restructions well into 2021. Politically untenable in my view, and apparently theirs.

With no restrictions there would be 100s of thousands of deaths (not the 20 thousand that is the present 'target') but the pandemic would be over by August, possibly sooner, millions recovered and immune and back running society. Also politically and socially unacceptable, in anyone's view aside from nutters. Avoidable deaths.

Our government took the advice, which could not be made till quite recently, to escalate restrictions so as to not trigger panic and chaos, with the aim of being as restrictive as society would tolerate, reviewing the situation daily, with the hope of delaying and reducing the peak without leaving so many unexposed to the virus and vulnerable that it would all come back and bite us on the bum in the Autumn.

They have also been quite honest, Boris himself saying people will die, rather than doing a Theresa May and saying 'we will do everything possible to prevent a single man, woman or British child dying' - then failing.

I disapprove of Boris but I remain persuaded he is doing everything correctly (by finding and following the best advice, and without making it party political - aside from his inevitable wisecracks that can hardly be viewed as considered strategy).

How are you explaining the 'herd immunity' phase that was radically at odds with what WHO were then saying, and have been saying for months?
 




Harry Wilson's tackle

Harry Wilson's Tackle
NSC Patron
Oct 8, 2003
55,851
Faversham
How are you explaining the 'herd immunity' phase that was radically at odds with what WHO were then saying, and have been saying for months?

I am not explaining it, because I don't know what you are asking.

Herd immunity is caused either by most people having had the disease or (more desirably) most people having been vaccinated, either way making the herd immune. If anyone in the Boris team invoked it as a mechanism of salvation they were talking bollocks because we don't have a vaccine, and (the other pathwayy) having everyone catch the virus is not is smart idea (millions would die). Was it my nemesis Patrick Vallance by any chance who mooted it as a mechanism? If so, as I said, he did his research on blood vessels then blagged his way to the top job in a Pharma company (GSK?). He is not trained in epidemiology or viral disease. :shrug:
 






Machiavelli

Well-known member
Oct 11, 2013
17,735
Fiveways
I am not explaining it, because I don't know what you are asking.

Herd immunity is caused either by most people having had the disease or (more desirably) most people having been vaccinated, either way making the herd immune. If anyone in the Boris team invoked it as a mechanism of salvation they were talking bollocks because we don't have a vaccine, and (the other pathwayy) having everyone catch the virus is not is smart idea (millions would die). Was it my nemesis Patrick Vallance by any chance who mooted it as a mechanism? If so, as I said, he did his research on blood vessels then blagged his way to the top job in a Pharma company (GSK?). He is not trained in epidemiology or viral disease. :shrug:

Yes, it was Vallance, who is an expert at the heart of government, advising them on the science who, as you seem to be indicating, is highly controversial (which might lead us to question what he's doing there). Beyond the WHO who have been advocating stringent physical distancing/isolation measures and "test, test, test", I've been most persuaded by the regular interventions by Anthony Costello (who also used to work at WHO) and, although I've only just come across it, this article seems as persuasive as I've come across, and was written just before Neil Ferguson's pronounced do-nothing/herd-immunity curves prompted the government to swing into action:

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...st-britain-herd-immunity-coronavirus-covid-19

If you work in (or close to) the field, please post any decent analyses.
 


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