Hillsborough verdict: Fans unlawfully killed

[Thunder Bolt]

Who counted the thousands in the streets then?....

Read the inquest reports. I have for the last two years. How many thousands were in the streets? Have you ever seen Leppings Lane?

 

[heathgate]

Still working for some people it would seem.

No... it's a matter of just commenting about football at that time. Pay on the day was the norm, fans always travelled without tickets, even to the Big all ticket games... turnstiles were often rushed by some of the more aggressive teams, Liverpool fans were in that category at that time..... so why would that scenario be any different at this game.

As anybody on this site who regularly watched and travelled away to football in the late 70's and most of the 80s can attest .. it was often a free for all, often like downtown Beruit. .... dangerous at times, and with very few external or street cameras to back them up with evidence, the police had their hands full for sure.

Just an observation from someone who lived it.

By the way... just like you cannot judge the excesses of the Romans by the rules and standards of today..... you also cannot add the context of today's football experience when judging what went on in the 70's and 80's.

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[chaileyjem]

I still find it amazing that in a fluid crowd of over 40,000, when ticketing systems were pretty basic and crowd control extremely difficult, that every single head could be accounted for. Fair play to them if they counted every single one....one can only assume that official ticket holders missing on the day, were replaced by those without tickets but those actually numbers can never be ascertained.

Who counted the thousands in the streets then?....

Its shocking stuff that after 27 years, a 2 year inquest, millions of documents and other inquiries and a verdict that was accepted in full without any caveats by South Yorks Police, David Cameron, Theresa May, The Sun, and Kelvin McKenzie ("I was duped") that there is still doubt repeated on here about ticketless fans and by implication seeding doubt on the verdict of the inquest. (how could they possibly have counted all of them, how do they know? what evidence ? etc etc -) - even if thats not the intention of the poster.

So its worthwile quoting this in full from the BBC website.
>>>

What we know: The claim [ticketless fans] formed the basis of the "rock solid" defence South Yorkshire Police [SYP] sought to present at the 1989 Taylor inquiry into the disaster. The aim was to "deflect blame on to supporters" and exonerate the police.
While many Liverpool supporters did arrive after 14.30, the inquest was told evidence suggested it was actually the "failure to control the crowd" and "inadequate" turnstiles that led to the fatal crush.
The jury heard evidence from former South Yorkshire Police inspector Clive Davis who recalled being told by former Ch Supt Terry Wain "to put the blame for this disaster where it belongs: on the drunken, ticketless Liverpool fans". This was denied in evidence by Mr Wain. However, he admitted a report he prepared had exaggerated claims that "several thousand" spectators had arrived at the ground within minutes of kick-off.
The inquests heard the 10,100 fans with standing tickets for the Leppings Lane end were expected to enter through just seven turnstiles, causing congestion outside the ground.
Lord Justice Taylor, in his 1990 report into the disaster, concluded fans were reasonable to arrive between 14.30 and 14.40 as match tickets only requested people be in their places "15 minutes before the game". He was also satisfied that the large concentration of fans arriving at Leppings Lane at 14.40 to 14.50 "did not arrive as a result of any concerted plan".
He concluded that police had "failed" to prepare for controlling the arrival of a large number of fans in a short period. Both the club and police "should have realised the turnstile area could not easily cope with the large numbers demanded of it" unless they arrived steadily over a lengthy period.
He accepted there were "small groups without tickets" looking to "exploit any chance of getting into the ground". But the main problem was simply one of "large numbers packed into the small area outside the turnstiles". He stated categorically that "fans' behaviour played no part in the disaster".
The Hillsborough Independent Panel (HIP) report concluded crowd congestion outside the stadium was "not caused by fans arriving late" for the kick-off. The turnstiles, it said, were "inadequate to process the crowd safely" and the rate of entry insufficient to prevent a dangerous build-up outside the ground.
What the jury said: The behaviour of Liverpool supporters did not cause or contribute to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles.

via http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-35473732

Can it be any clearer ?

 

[heathgate]

Read the inquest reports. I have for the last two years. How many thousands were in the streets? Have you ever seen Leppings Lane?

Yep... been there many times... there is room for plenty in the immediate lead up to those turnstiles....mentioned in the inquest.... but I was asking out of curiosity... who decided that none of those panicking about getting in close to kick off were ticket less. .. I would say that was impossible to say in my view.

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[Thunder Bolt]

Its shocking stuff that after 27 years, a 2 year inquest, millions of documents and other inquiries and a verdict that was accepted in full without any caveats by South Yorks Police, David Cameron, Theresa May, The Sun, and Kelvin McKenzie ("I was duped") that there is still doubt about ticketless fans and by implication seeding doubt on the verdict of the inquest. (how could they possibly have counted all of them, how do they know? what evidence ? etc etc -)

So its worthwile quoting this in full from the BBC website.
>>>

What we know: The claim [ticketless fans] formed the basis of the "rock solid" defence South Yorkshire Police [SYP] sought to present at the 1989 Taylor inquiry into the disaster. The aim was to "deflect blame on to supporters" and exonerate the police.
While many Liverpool supporters did arrive after 14.30, the inquest was told evidence suggested it was actually the "failure to control the crowd" and "inadequate" turnstiles that led to the fatal crush.
The jury heard evidence from former South Yorkshire Police inspector Clive Davis who recalled being told by former Ch Supt Terry Wain "to put the blame for this disaster where it belongs: on the drunken, ticketless Liverpool fans". This was denied in evidence by Mr Wain. However, he admitted a report he prepared had exaggerated claims that "several thousand" spectators had arrived at the ground within minutes of kick-off.
The inquests heard the 10,100 fans with standing tickets for the Leppings Lane end were expected to enter through just seven turnstiles, causing congestion outside the ground.
Lord Justice Taylor, in his 1990 report into the disaster, concluded fans were reasonable to arrive between 14.30 and 14.40 as match tickets only requested people be in their places "15 minutes before the game". He was also satisfied that the large concentration of fans arriving at Leppings Lane at 14.40 to 14.50 "did not arrive as a result of any concerted plan".
He concluded that police had "failed" to prepare for controlling the arrival of a large number of fans in a short period. Both the club and police "should have realised the turnstile area could not easily cope with the large numbers demanded of it" unless they arrived steadily over a lengthy period.
He accepted there were "small groups without tickets" looking to "exploit any chance of getting into the ground". But the main problem was simply one of "large numbers packed into the small area outside the turnstiles". He stated categorically that "fans' behaviour played no part in the disaster".
The Hillsborough Independent Panel (HIP) report concluded crowd congestion outside the stadium was "not caused by fans arriving late" for the kick-off. The turnstiles, it said, were "inadequate to process the crowd safely" and the rate of entry insufficient to prevent a dangerous build-up outside the ground.
What the jury said: The behaviour of Liverpool supporters did not cause or contribute to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles.

via http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-35473732

Can it be any clearer ?

Thanks. I was just about to post that link. The headline is Five Hillsborough myths dispelled by inquests jury.

I wonder if there is still some bias from other fans because they were scousers.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Yep... been there many times... there is room for plenty in the immediate lead up to those turnstiles....mentioned in the inquest.... but I was asking out of curiosity... who decided that none of those panicking about getting in close to kick off were ticket less. .. I would say that was impossible to say in my view.

There is cctv footage showing the gates being opened. There was no panic, nobody was running, let alone pushing. That comes under Myth number 4.
Click on the link that chaileyjem has just posted. There is a still of the turnstiles. Open your mind and accept the truth.

 

[ROSM]

Who counted the thousands in the streets then?....

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The health and safety executive counted those in the immediate area around the stadium amd who, if it were true, could have had a bearing on a crush.

They found the numbers inside coupled with those in the vicinity of the stadium at 2.55 were aligned to the tickets sold

 

[chaileyjem]

No... it's a matter of just commenting about football at that time. Pay on the day was the norm, fans always travelled without tickets, even to the Big all ticket games... turnstiles were often rushed by some of the more aggressive teams, Liverpool fans were in that category at that time..... so why would that scenario be any different at this game.

So what. It played no part in the tragedy whatsoever. And you have no evidence whatsoever and are just guessing about # of tickets at Hillsbrough.
Especially just 24 hours after the inquest has reported and feelings are still raw.

 

[chaileyjem]

Yep... been there many times... there is room for plenty in the immediate lead up to those turnstiles....mentioned in the inquest.... but I was asking out of curiosity... who decided that none of those panicking about getting in close to kick off were ticket less. .. I would say that was impossible to say in my view.

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153. Consistent with Lord Justice Taylor's findings, the Panel found no evidence among the vast number of disclosed documents and many hours of video material to verify the serious allegations of exceptional levels of drunkenness, ticketlessness or violence among Liverpool fans. There was no evidence that fans had conspired to arrive late at the stadium and force entry and no evidence that they stole from the dead and dying. Documents show that fans became frustrated by the inadequate response to the unfolding tragedy. The vast majority of fans on the pitch assisted in rescuing and evacuating the injured and the dead.
http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/report/Section-1/summary/page-14/

 

[Bwian]

Still working for some people it would seem.

Yep, still working.

 

[Bwian]

Its shocking stuff that after 27 years, a 2 year inquest, millions of documents and other inquiries and a verdict that was accepted in full without any caveats by South Yorks Police, David Cameron, Theresa May, The Sun, and Kelvin McKenzie ("I was duped") that there is still doubt repeated on here about ticketless fans and by implication seeding doubt on the verdict of the inquest. (how could they possibly have counted all of them, how do they know? what evidence ? etc etc -) - even if thats not the intention of the poster.

So its worthwile quoting this in full from the BBC website.
>>>

What we know: The claim [ticketless fans] formed the basis of the "rock solid" defence South Yorkshire Police [SYP] sought to present at the 1989 Taylor inquiry into the disaster. The aim was to "deflect blame on to supporters" and exonerate the police.
While many Liverpool supporters did arrive after 14.30, the inquest was told evidence suggested it was actually the "failure to control the crowd" and "inadequate" turnstiles that led to the fatal crush.
The jury heard evidence from former South Yorkshire Police inspector Clive Davis who recalled being told by former Ch Supt Terry Wain "to put the blame for this disaster where it belongs: on the drunken, ticketless Liverpool fans". This was denied in evidence by Mr Wain. However, he admitted a report he prepared had exaggerated claims that "several thousand" spectators had arrived at the ground within minutes of kick-off.
The inquests heard the 10,100 fans with standing tickets for the Leppings Lane end were expected to enter through just seven turnstiles, causing congestion outside the ground.
Lord Justice Taylor, in his 1990 report into the disaster, concluded fans were reasonable to arrive between 14.30 and 14.40 as match tickets only requested people be in their places "15 minutes before the game". He was also satisfied that the large concentration of fans arriving at Leppings Lane at 14.40 to 14.50 "did not arrive as a result of any concerted plan".
He concluded that police had "failed" to prepare for controlling the arrival of a large number of fans in a short period. Both the club and police "should have realised the turnstile area could not easily cope with the large numbers demanded of it" unless they arrived steadily over a lengthy period.
He accepted there were "small groups without tickets" looking to "exploit any chance of getting into the ground". But the main problem was simply one of "large numbers packed into the small area outside the turnstiles". He stated categorically that "fans' behaviour played no part in the disaster".
The Hillsborough Independent Panel (HIP) report concluded crowd congestion outside the stadium was "not caused by fans arriving late" for the kick-off. The turnstiles, it said, were "inadequate to process the crowd safely" and the rate of entry insufficient to prevent a dangerous build-up outside the ground.
What the jury said: The behaviour of Liverpool supporters did not cause or contribute to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles.

via http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-35473732

Can it be any clearer ?

Clearly not.

 

[Diego Napier]

It's very worrying. All forces have bad apples, but it was institutionalised in that force.

Rhino whip, Orgreave, Hillsborough, Rotherham - a continuing sequence that is truly atrocious.

 

[Ernest]

The SYP at Orgreave saved Thatcher's bacon, she had gone all in on defeating the 'enemy within' and if she had lost to the miners she would have been finished. So when it was time to repay the favour at Hillsborough she did and then the lies and cover ups started as the government couldn't be seen to have done what it had done, that it lasted 27 years is shameful.

 

[Titanic]

The SYP at Orgreave saved Thatcher's bacon, she had gone all in on defeating the 'enemy within' and if she had lost to the miners she would have been finished. So when it was time to repay the favour at Hillsborough she did and then the lies and cover ups started as the government couldn't be seen to have done what it had done, that it lasted 27 years is shameful.

Surely this would have been exposed during 13 years of Labour government? Blair, Brown, Harman, Straw, Blunkett, Falconer, Irvine, Prescott, Clarke, Beckett, Cook, Reid, Hain...

 

[Diego Napier]

Its shocking stuff that after 27 years, a 2 year inquest, millions of documents and other inquiries and a verdict that was accepted in full without any caveats by South Yorks Police, David Cameron, Theresa May, The Sun, and Kelvin McKenzie ("I was duped") that there is still doubt repeated on here about ticketless fans and by implication seeding doubt on the verdict of the inquest. (how could they possibly have counted all of them, how do they know? what evidence ? etc etc -) - even if thats not the intention of the poster.

So its worthwile quoting this in full from the BBC website.
>>>

What we know: The claim [ticketless fans] formed the basis of the "rock solid" defence South Yorkshire Police [SYP] sought to present at the 1989 Taylor inquiry into the disaster. The aim was to "deflect blame on to supporters" and exonerate the police.
While many Liverpool supporters did arrive after 14.30, the inquest was told evidence suggested it was actually the "failure to control the crowd" and "inadequate" turnstiles that led to the fatal crush.
The jury heard evidence from former South Yorkshire Police inspector Clive Davis who recalled being told by former Ch Supt Terry Wain "to put the blame for this disaster where it belongs: on the drunken, ticketless Liverpool fans". This was denied in evidence by Mr Wain. However, he admitted a report he prepared had exaggerated claims that "several thousand" spectators had arrived at the ground within minutes of kick-off.
The inquests heard the 10,100 fans with standing tickets for the Leppings Lane end were expected to enter through just seven turnstiles, causing congestion outside the ground.
Lord Justice Taylor, in his 1990 report into the disaster, concluded fans were reasonable to arrive between 14.30 and 14.40 as match tickets only requested people be in their places "15 minutes before the game". He was also satisfied that the large concentration of fans arriving at Leppings Lane at 14.40 to 14.50 "did not arrive as a result of any concerted plan".
He concluded that police had "failed" to prepare for controlling the arrival of a large number of fans in a short period. Both the club and police "should have realised the turnstile area could not easily cope with the large numbers demanded of it" unless they arrived steadily over a lengthy period.
He accepted there were "small groups without tickets" looking to "exploit any chance of getting into the ground". But the main problem was simply one of "large numbers packed into the small area outside the turnstiles". He stated categorically that "fans' behaviour played no part in the disaster".
The Hillsborough Independent Panel (HIP) report concluded crowd congestion outside the stadium was "not caused by fans arriving late" for the kick-off. The turnstiles, it said, were "inadequate to process the crowd safely" and the rate of entry insufficient to prevent a dangerous build-up outside the ground.
What the jury said: The behaviour of Liverpool supporters did not cause or contribute to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles.

via http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-35473732

Can it be any clearer ?

Not for the overwhelming number of reasonable people however, the continuing prevarication, contradiction, deflection, denial and wilful missing-of-the-point shown by a few on this thread in spite of all the evidence in the public domain demonstrates quite clearly how easy it was for SYP to get away with it for so long.

 

[heathgate]

So what. It played no part in the tragedy whatsoever. And you have no evidence whatsoever and are just guessing about # of tickets at Hillsbrough.
Especially just 24 hours after the inquest has reported and feelings are still raw.

Who is apportioning blame here?.. nobody..... it's just a view based on personal experience... I am not saying it's right, I just find it difficult to believe that they can so certain that there were no ticket less fans..... we'll actually they were saying it was their view that ticket less fans didn't contribute.....

I have said before... I would firstly target the FA, SWFC and the council regulators who all managed to ignore previous history in that terrace, and the fact that there was no valid safety certificate.... but still assign Hillsborough to host the 2nd highest profile game of the season.

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[heathgate]

Surely this would have been exposed during 13 years of Labour government? Blair, Brown, Harman, Straw, Blunkett, Falconer, Irvine, Beckett, Cook, Reid, Hain...

Clearly not.

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[ROSM]

Surely this would have been exposed during 13 years of Labour government?

I looked into this in some depth a few years ago.

New into government, labour ordered a review of Hillsborough. Due to errors the terms of reference (signed by Jack straw and based on advice from civil servants) was too narrow and allowed the chairman of that panel (lord suart-smith) to rule there was no evidence to justify reopening the inquests and investigation

A few years later lord falconer as lord Chancellor and also first justice secretary found some concerns in that. Hence when Andy Burnham applied to Jacqui Smith as home secretary to hold and inquiry, he backed it and ensured a suitably wide ToR which led to the Hillsborough panel. Alan Johnson as subsequent home secretary saw it into being and Teresa may strengthened the position by agreeing all material would be made public.

So call it naivety or an error but labour missed a first chance to get to the truth but did start the ball rolling eventually

Btw there are some awful stories about suart-smith and how he treated the process and the people involved

 

[aolstudios]

A ****wit or two on here could really do themselves a favour & stop digging...

 

[Bold Seagull]

Who is apportioning blame here?.. nobody..... it's just a view based on personal experience... I am not saying it's right, I just find it difficult to believe that they can so certain that there were no ticket less fans..... we'll actually they were saying it was their view that ticket less fans didn't contribute.....

I have said before... I would firstly target the FA, SWFC and the council regulators who all managed to ignore previous history in that terrace, and the fact that there was no valid safety certificate.... but still assign Hillsborough to host the 2nd highest profile game of the season.

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Human error and mistakes ultimately cost the lives of 96 people. Those mistakes cannot be righted. However, surely the biggest crime here is the institutional lies, covering up and ultimately corruption that have been part of this process for 27 years. Evidence within this inquest was still riddled with these lies. Yes, target those at the FA, SWFC, the Local Council etc. but you're only finding human errors there. Beyond that there is conspiracy to change the course of justice for 27 years and counting from a police force, from public services, from elected members. This undermines a basic trust in accountability for our democracy. There is far more at stake here than blaming individual decisions.

None of the justice you outline as your first targets could take place because of these lies.