Hillsborough the search for the truth

[The Large One]

Why not? But in any case, it really doesn't matter. The fact that CCTV evidence got "lost" and SYP changed something like 116 of the 164 statements to suit their story tells us all we need to know.

Interesting point.

The Panel said today that the missing CCTV tapes story was 'apocryphal', and they had no evidence how many, if any, were missing. However, what they also said was that that didn't matter; that they had all necessary information.

In other words, other cameras covered all the data they needed.

 

[ROSM]

I dont believe that even if they have found evidence that Liverpool fans contributed to the disaster that it could ever be allowed to be made public.

If that evidence had existed then it would have been available at the Taylor report stage when I'm pretty sure the environment was condusive to receiving such news. It didn't and it wasn't.

 

[Triggaaar]

That's a bit of a silly thing to say.

That applies to 80% of his posts

 

[Diego Napier]

I possess no evidence, just a useful amount of common sense which leads me to believe that Liverpool fans were far from blameless, along with other parties.

Having read through this thread, I've seen no evidence that you possess any, let alone a useful amount of, common sense.

However, you have very effectively demonstrated that your opinions are grounded in the bedrock of both inherent prejudice and considerable ignorance.

 

[Lady Whistledown]

Why not? But in any case, it really doesn't matter. The fact that CCTV evidence got "lost" and SYP changed something like 116 of the 164 statements to suit their story tells us all we need to know.

The statements that were changed were their own officers' statements too

 

[Emily's Mum]

Question: Can Duckenfield be prosecuted now?

No. He died some years ago. Never called to account at a disciplinary hearing either as he retired on an ill-health pension after being off sick due to stress

 

[DTES]

The statements that were changed were their own officers' statements too

Indeed. Just awful. Not even minor adjustments either; from the Guardian:

The statement by PC Maxwell Groome was one of "those most extensively altered" the report found.

The following material was deleted from his original account:"The decision to replace Chief Superintendent Mole before the semi-final needs to come under some scrutiny. This man had many years experience of policing big matches at Hillsborough.

Compared to other semi-finals held at Hillsborough, the organisation of this event was poor, as has been the case for most of the season. Too little notice had been taken of current trends and football intelligence and too much reliance has been placed upon previous information held.

Too many non-operational supervisory officers were in charge of important and critical parts of the football ground.

The deployment of officers around the crucial time needs to come under scrutiny, too many were sat around in the gymnasium whilst others were rushed off their feet."

He also wrote originally: "It was noticeable that the only supervisory officers above the rank of Inspector on the pitch were Chief Inspectors Beal and Sumner and Superintendent Greenwood. Certain supervisory officers were conspicuous by their absence. It was utter chaos."

This was changed to: "On the pitch were Chief Inspectors Beal and Sumner and Superintendent Greenwood."

 

[Lady Whistledown]

No. He died some years ago. Never called to account at a disciplinary hearing either as he retired on an ill-health pension after being off sick due to stress

Are you sure he's dead? People were talking about potential charges against him earlier.

 

[Lady Whistledown]

No. He died some years ago. Never called to account at a disciplinary hearing either as he retired on an ill-health pension after being off sick due to stress

Are you sure he's dead? People were talking about potential charges against him earlier.

Edit: I don't think he is. Lord Justice Taylor, is dead, as is one of the other police superintendents on duty that day, but as far as I can tell from googling it, Duckenfield is still alive and kicking and living in the South.

 

[Lady Whistledown]

Indeed. Just awful. Not even minor adjustments either; from the Guardian:

The statement by PC Maxwell Groome was one of "those most extensively altered" the report found.

The following material was deleted from his original account:"The decision to replace Chief Superintendent Mole before the semi-final needs to come under some scrutiny. This man had many years experience of policing big matches at Hillsborough.

Compared to other semi-finals held at Hillsborough, the organisation of this event was poor, as has been the case for most of the season. Too little notice had been taken of current trends and football intelligence and too much reliance has been placed upon previous information held.

Too many non-operational supervisory officers were in charge of important and critical parts of the football ground.

The deployment of officers around the crucial time needs to come under scrutiny, too many were sat around in the gymnasium whilst others were rushed off their feet."

He also wrote originally: "It was noticeable that the only supervisory officers above the rank of Inspector on the pitch were Chief Inspectors Beal and Sumner and Superintendent Greenwood. Certain supervisory officers were conspicuous by their absence. It was utter chaos."

This was changed to: "On the pitch were Chief Inspectors Beal and Sumner and Superintendent Greenwood."

It's awkward, as statements are supposed to be just that, ie fact, not opinion (within reason, as obviously your perception of how hard somebody has punched someone is opinion to an extent), but there certainly seems to be an awful lot taken out by those in charge at SYP.

Statements are occasionally and legitimately edited for court cases, but only usually to remove things that shouldn't be in open court (for example the home address of a victim). I'd be more than pissed off if I'd written a statement and subsequently discovered that much had been taken out.

 

[Working class pride]

I have said before that nobody set out to kill anyone. That for me a a fundamental truth. The crime however was the police and their bog standard reaction of failing to tell the truth if the truth is uncomfortable. Not just those at the top but rank and file officers who through their trade union, the police federation plotted with the chief constable in a restaurant in Sheffield to tell lies. This was illegal and those at the restaurant could be charged, as could the 100 odd officers who falsified their statements. However none of this is new, we all new this before today and I would like us the taxpayer to not be penalised by huge lawyers fees as per the Bloody Sunday enquiry. It was not my and your fault that the police messed up and then lied. We pay for the police and giving money to the likes of Mansfield QC is penalising me and you.

I have said before there is no justice to be had, and I had in mind the fact that it was an accident, however if there is a proper appetite to arrest, charge and convict officers for telling lies, then maybe some good will come out of this. A word of caution however, how many police have been sent to prison after the scandals of Cardiff, Birmingham 6 and Guilford 4? The answer is 0. In my view there should be a separate police force that monitors and investigates the police.

This post may seem anti police. I am not anti police but simply realistic. The police force are highly paid compared to their level of qualifications and often intellect. Frankly we all know the public sector is a resting place for many who couldn't cut it in the commercial world. They hide behind trade unions and the press. The police are no different. They have a few that are intelligent, many who are not that bright and many also who are down right thick. That however is society in general and so we must all look at ourselves and wonder if the police are really no different to us. How many of us work for companies where people deflect blame and getting anyone to take responsibility for a mistake is a challenge in both the public and private sector. The police are no different and that is why they need a separate police force to keep a special eye on them.

The Police federation have been very quiet today and that is not a surprise.

 

[Emily's Mum]

Are you sure he's dead? People were talking about potential charges against him earlier.

Edit: I don't think he is. Lord Justice Taylor, is dead, as is one of the other police superintendents on duty that day, but as far as I can tell from googling it, Duckenfield is still alive and kicking and living in the South.

I'm happy to be told I'm wrong, but I'm sure I heard it when I was up north & saw it on Look North.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

I understand that the findings will not be pleasant and will not reflect well on South Yorkshire's finest.

Told you....

 

[Emily's Mum]

Looks as if if I need to apologise. Google would suggest that he is alive, and living off the pension I helped to pay for

 

[Acker79]

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

 

[Tooting Gull]

It's awkward, as statements are supposed to be just that, ie fact, not opinion (within reason, as obviously your perception of how hard somebody has punched someone is opinion to an extent), but there certainly seems to be an awful lot taken out by those in charge at SYP.

Statements are occasionally and legitimately edited for court cases, but only usually to remove things that shouldn't be in open court (for example the home address of a victim). I'd be more than pissed off if I'd written a statement and subsequently discovered that much had been taken out.

I was going to ask someone about this aspect of it, because the police have always defended this 'editing' on the grounds that it was removing 'opinion'. A bit of a coincidence that all of the opinion removed was very negative about the policing operation on the day. And what is the point of asking anyone for a statement, or hundreds of statements, if NOT to get their 'opinion' of what took place?

It is absolutely key to nail this if any serving or former police officers are to be prosecuted for anything from perverting the course of justice downwards.

We knew a lot of today's stuff before, the three things that shocked me of the new stuff was the extent of the doctoring of police statements, the same for the ambulance service, and the number of people that may have died unnecessarily had the emergency response functioned properly.

I am wondering what the chances are of criminal prosecutions against any of the following after today, for negligence or other: Senior officers involved in the operation; senior FA figures for choice of ground; Sheff Wed and City Council figures for state of stadium, outdated safety certificate etc; police officers for doctoring statements; police officers/ambulance service for not reacting correctly to try and save lives. And there are probably more.

I would like to believe the chances are good, but truthfully I am not hopeful.

 

[Working class pride]

I dont think there should be criminal sanction for negligence. But the lies and the perverting the course of justice should, as with Guilford 4 Birmingham 6 and Cardiff result in jail terms for the guilty. As with Cardiff, Guilford and Birmingham, it would be the police investigating the police and as with the other three cases, I would not be surprised if the investigations result in no convictions

 

[Thunder Bolt]

CCTV evidence and turnstile counts showed the stand to around 100 undercapacity from what i've read. The mistake not directing people to the outer pens however you do have to question what loss of life there may have been had the gates not been opened, sadly it's one where we will never get the answer.

Read from 191-202 in the Taylor report and then try to be less ignorant
http://www.fsf.org.uk/uploaded/publications/pdfs/interim%20report%20hillsborough.pdf


I'll help you by reprinting section 202 for you

202. Secondly, such figures as are available from the Club's electronic monitoring system and from analyses
by the HSE suggest that no great number entered without tickets. They show that the number who passed
through turnstiles A to G plus those who entered through gate C roughly equalled the terrace capacity figure of
10,100 for which tickets had been sold. The Club's record showed 7,038 passed through turnstiles A to G.
However, the counting mechanism on turnstile G was defective, so the HSE did a study using the video film
and projecting figures from the other turnstiles. This gave an assessment of 7,494, with a maximum of 7,644
passing through A to G. Again, using the video, the HSE assessed the number who entered the ground whilst
gate C was open at 2,240 with a maximum of 2,480. Accordingly, the HSE's best estimate of the total entering
through gate C and turnstiles A to G was 9,734 with a maximum of 10,124.1 recognise that these can only be
rough checks because, for example, some with terrace tickets were allowed through turnstiles 1 to 16 and there
would be other similar factors which have not formed part of the assessment. Nevertheless, the figures do
suggest that there was not a very significant body of ticketless fans in the crowd which built up.

These posts shoe that the stand was still under capacity from the number of tickets sold. This has been common knowledge sine the Taylor report, so for anyone who wanted to know, the information was there as ROSM said.

I hope there is a(re) new inquest(s) as the cut off at 3.15pm was criminal. One mother has said she knows her son was still alive at 4pm but not receiving proper medical treatment & consequently died. That is criminal negligence.

 

[HOFNSKIN]

Thousands of people crowded into Liverpool's St George's Plateau in the heart of the city centre to remember the 96 football fans who died at Hillsborough 23 years ago.

The vigil came on the day that an independent panel produced its hard-hitting report into just what happened at the FA Cup semi-final between Liverpool and Nottingham Forest in April 1989.

This was a way of Liverpudlians showing their solidarity with the families of the 96 who have campaigned for justice for their loved ones for almost a quarter of a century.

Local dignitaries, MPs Esther McVey, who had family members at the semi-final, and Andy Burnham, an Evertonian who was instrumental in setting up the independent panel to investigate the truth about Hillsborough, were there.

Also at the vigil were MP Steve Rotherham, comedian and actor John Bishop, and of course the families of the victims who died that day.

Football hymn Abide With Me was sung by the crowd, who listened intently to a series of speeches praising the families and the work of the panel and pledging to continue the fight for justice.

There was also thanks to Liverpool legend Kenny Dalglish, whose commitment to the families of the 96 who died went far beyond his role as the club manager at the time of the disaster. He was cheered loudly.

Later on he, Jamie Carragher, Graeme Sharpe and Liverpool managing director Ian Ayre read out the names of each of the 96 victims of Hillsborough.

Youth players from the club carried lanterns with a candle for every one of the dead, placing them along the steps of St George's Hall before Liverpool's anthem You'll Never Walk Alone brought proceedings to a close.

The crowds then melted away with their own thoughts on the momentous day that Liverpool and the world finally learned the truth about the Hillsborough disaster.
.

 

[teaboy]

A link to this was posted on page 4, but needs to be reiterated. It shows that the authorities KNEW there were issues with the ground 8 YEARS before the Hillsborough disaster took place. No stories of ticketless fans, drunkenness or anything else. Just a lot of VERY lucky football fans, and further evidence that the authorities failed despite knowing the dangers.