Greece crisis: Europe on edge over snap election

[Westdene Seagull]

I think we can all feel proud as Europeans today.

Proud of making the 200,000 poorest Greek pensioners even poorer ? Proud of a deal that will cost many more Greeks their jobs thus pushing the 25% unemployment rate ( 50% of young people ) even higher ?

No thanks, I'd rather not even be associated with being European as it stands.

 

[sten_super]

Now the finer details are emerging it seems, on balance, the best deal for both sides. It still has to be ratified by the Greek parliament though.

I think we can all feel proud as Europeans today.

I really don't understand your perspective on this, particularly given how contrary it runs to your normal political views. Are you on some kind of long play wind-up? Or does Schäuble have some dirty pictures of you that he's threatening to release to the press unless you tow the German line? Maybe all that time living in Germany is getting to you...

 

[Simster]

But economic reform has been promised. And debt restructure is also been mentioned. I see it more as giving time to Greece to demonstrate it will keep it's fiscal promises. The first step.

So the Greeks have been promised some debt write-off in exchange for fiscal reform? If not, it's not much of a deal is it.

And this "proud European" bluster is completely laughable for the reason Westdene highlights. I've always been very pro-EU, but this is vomit inducing. There is nothing to be proud about. Nothing whatsoever.

 

[sten_super]

So the Greeks have been promised some debt write-off in exchange for fiscal reform? If not, it's not much of a deal is it.

They've got very little that they didn't have under the second bailout - a vague confirmation that they'll "look" at restructuring the debt after the first successful review of the third bailout programme.

Even that won't take the form of a headline write-off, because the Germans have decided there's no treaty allowance to do that (notwithstanding that there's no treaty allowance for most of what they're doing). It will instead be a temporary hiatus in repayments and more interest holidays/reductions.

 

[Simster]

I really don't understand your perspective on this, particularly given how contrary it runs to your normal political views. Are you on some kind of long play wind-up? Or does Schäuble have some dirty pictures of you that he's threatening to release to the press unless you tow the German line? Maybe all that time living in Germany is getting to you...

Quite. Centre-right German and Greek governments form an integral part of cooking the books to get Greece into the Eurozone, including allowing an astonishing level of borrowing. Then when the Greek economy predictably collapses (shrinks by a quarter in a few short years) owing to the austerity being demanded to pay it back, a left wing government is voted in. It demands some of the lenders bear some of the brunt of the pain - and they are given short thrift by that same centre-right German government.

No debt write-off on the table. Greeks will die. It absolutely stinks. There is nothing to be proud about.

 

[Simster]

They've got very little that they didn't have under the second bailout - a vague confirmation that they'll "look" at restructuring the debt after the first successful review of the third bailout programme.

Even that won't take the form of a headline write-off, because the Germans have decided there's no treaty allowance to do that (notwithstanding that there's no treaty allowance for most of what they're doing). It will instead be a temporary hiatus in repayments and more interest holidays/reductions.

The Greek parliament ought to dismiss this out of hand, and the leftist government ought to have an alternative plan in place that doesn't begin and end with "we MUST stay in the Eurozone, you can't legally cut us loose"

 

[sten_super]

The Greek parliament ought to dismiss this out of hand, and the leftist government ought to have an alternative plan in place that doesn't begin and end with "we MUST stay in the Eurozone, you can't legally cut us loose"

I agree with you that Tsipras' negotiating technique has been extremely odd, and leaves a lot to be desired. However at some point he was always going to have to cave in, because actually exit from the Eurozone (well, the bank run that precipitated it) would be worse. Today, the banks would have run out of money as the ECB removed their financing. Ordinary people's savings would take massive haircuts. The government would have been unable to pay wages and pensions. The country would have ground to a halt. Today's alternative is that there is more austerity, incomes fall, but they fall more gradually, and bridging finance will ensure that cash is still available and people's daily lives can continue.

 

[Buzzer]

Now the finer details are emerging it seems, on balance, the best deal for both sides. It still has to be ratified by the Greek parliament though.

I think we can all feel proud as Europeans today.

What's good for the Fatherland is good for the Lebensraum. That'll be that world-famous Teutonic empathy, no doubt.

 

[ditchy]

Now the finer details are emerging it seems, on balance, the best deal for both sides. It still has to be ratified by the Greek parliament though.

I think we can all feel proud as Europeans today.

They havent implemented the proposals yet ! lets wait and see what the Greeks actually do ...I am not holding my breath !!

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

They havent implemented the proposals yet ! lets wait and see what the Greeks actually do ...I am not holding my breath !!

I agree. Let's wait and see if the Greek parliament, and people, are happy with what they have agreed.

 

[Guy Crouchback]

So, basically, the EU will pump billions and billions of euros into Greece (again) on condition that the Greeks will approve and implement certain reforms (again). It means that the EU gives money, and everything else rests on Greek honesty, Greek truthfulness, Greek hard work, and Greek willingness to save money and act rationally.

Well, good luck to everyone involved.

 

[Buzzer]

I agree. Let's wait and see if the Greek parliament, and people, are happy with what they have agreed.

There's an article on the FT today titled "Greece’s brutal creditors have demolished the eurozone project"

Unfortunately it's behind a paywall but here's the first para:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e38a452e-26f2-11e5-bd83-71cb60e8f08c.html#ixzz3fm39LZu8




"few things that many of us took for granted, and that some of us believed in, ended in a single weekend. By forcing Alexis Tsipras into a humiliating defeat, Greece’s creditors have done a lot more than bring about regime change in Greece or endanger its relations with the eurozone. They have destroyed the eurozone as we know it and demolished the idea of a monetary union as a step towards a democratic political union. In doing so they reverted to the nationalist European power struggles of the 19th and early 20th century. They demoted the eurozone into a toxic fixed exchange-rate system, with a shared single currency, run in the interests of Germany, held together by the threat of absolute destitution for those who challenge the prevailing order. The best thing that can be said of the weekend is the brutal honesty of those perpetrating this regime change.

But it was not just the brutality that stood out, nor even the total capitulation of Greece. The material shift is that Germany has formally proposed an exit mechanism. On Saturday, Wolfgang Schäuble, finance minister, insisted on a time-limited exit — a “timeout” as he called it. I have heard quite a few crazy proposals in my time, and this one is right up there. A member state pushed for the expulsion of another. This was the real coup over the weekend: regime change in the eurozone."

Just to clarify, this is from the Financial Times no less. My highlighting.

 

[Pavilionaire]

This is a sorry situation all round. I actually have a lot of sympathy with Merkel; it must be tough enough running the German economy and the Eurozone without having to run the Greek economy too. She must feel like a stepmother looking after her own kids AND the b*****d kids of her second husband who she now regrets marrying because he spends every night down the pub.

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

So, basically, the EU will pump billions and billions of euros into Greece (again) on condition that the Greeks will approve and implement certain reforms (again). It means that the EU gives money, and everything else rests on Greek honesty, Greek truthfulness, Greek hard work, and Greek willingness to save money and act rationally.

Well, good luck to everyone involved.

And the Germans will be happy as they will get another opportunity to flog them clapped out submarines and associated bribes. Again.

No-one comes out of this well.

 

[simmo]

Greece is giving a firm Oxi to the two most controversial elements of the eurozone plan:

Greek official: €zone’s plan for privatizing €50B of greek assets is “on another planet” for @atsipras & temporary #Grexit "100 percent No.”

The deal still has to be ratified by the Greek parliament. It will be interesting to see what the Greek general public whom voted No in the referendum last week do between now and Wednesday when it is due to be ratified. If there are hundreds of thousands of them protesting on the streets, can the Greek parliament ratify??

Tsipras has been an utter disaster for the Greek people. He has now reneged on his promises and has actually made the bailout deal offered much worse (because Greece has been in economic paralysis for the last 2 weeks and because the creditors now basically despise him and his party). You can't but help feel sorry for the poor Greek people as they are going to be the ones whom suffer most, while Syriza play big boys politics and get their fingers badly burnt (and no doubt disappear stage left when Tsipras resigns next week).

 

[sir albion]

Now the finer details are emerging it seems, on balance, the best deal for both sides. It still has to be ratified by the Greek parliament though.

I think we can all feel proud as Europeans today.

Proud to be British not a bloody European
We will never fit in with the rest of Europe no matter what many will say....We will never get on with the French or Germans etc and we're not liked as people by most European countries.

We'll get rinsed and abused by these twats and they bloody love it.

So much for the Greek referendum....Complete utter waste of time

 

[Kevlar]

The complete madness of this scenario is that this bailout has precisely
the same chance of delivering growth for Greece as the other bailouts.NONE!
The idea that the Greek private sector can run massive deficits and provide more work
for their people is completely stupid.We will be back with the same scenario for
the next bailout meanwhile the youth in particular of Greece (also Spain Portugal Italy)
have been sacrificed on the altar of austerity.Leave your country and family or rot on the dole.
Dark days are coming to Europe.This is not going to end well.

 

[crookie]

This doesn't pull any punches if you've a spare 5 minutes, what a disaster

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...ng-treated-like-a-hostile-occupied-state.html

 

[Westdene Seagull]

This doesn't pull any punches if you've a spare 5 minutes, what a disaster

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...ng-treated-like-a-hostile-occupied-state.html

Interesting. I share the authors sentiments. The EU has already forced the change of one democratically elected leader of Greece ( and Italy ) and no doubt will now force the current PM from power at some point. It's strange that so many people are blind to the EUs lack of following democratic will and standard economic processes ( like getting your accounts signed off ). Yet they will be the first to complain when countries like Greece, Italy and Spain elect hard line right or left governments and there is violence against the EU ..... and i will have every sympathy with them because the EU gives not one toss for the man and woman on the street.

 

[crookie]

Interesting. I share the authors sentiments. The EU has already forced the change of one democratically elected leader of Greece ( and Italy ) and no doubt will now force the current PM from power at some point. It's strange that so many people are blind to the EUs lack of following democratic will and standard economic processes ( like getting your accounts signed off ). Yet they will be the first to complain when countries like Greece, Italy and Spain elect hard line right or left governments and there is violence against the EU ..... and i will have every sympathy with them because the EU gives not one toss for the man and woman on the street.

Indeed, it's all about politics and the 'project'. Hollande saying there was no way he was going to allow a Grexit, not for the sake of the Greek people, but because of the power and prestige that France has at the heart of the EU/Eurozone, and nothing could be allowed to damage that. Could he sell to his people what Tsipras has now to try and sell to his. They are all panicking because if Greece goes, the house of cards is in danger of crashing down around them. Can kicked down the road and Greece humiliated, decades of suffering coming up, mission accomplished