Greece crisis: Europe on edge over snap election

[beorhthelm]

Whether or not that's true, I object to the German position that they won't write off any of the debt under any circumstances.

this isn't quite the case though is it. firstly the debt was restructured and the reforms promised did not follow. second its rather difficult to agree to a debt write off at the very same time as being asked for a new bailout. the German (and other Europeans) position has been "we aren't talking about a write off now", i.e. this is something to discuss in the future, on the quiet preferably while no-ones paying attention.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

If this mate of mine had previously written off some of the money I borrowed from him then I would return the favour.

I would probably ask my friend to demonstrate he was serious about getting his house in order first. I would be acting foolishly otherwise, and it might compromise my friendship.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

An interesting article - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33503330

I was most taken by this bit : "Will the rise and rise of populist anti-EU parties all over Europe be staunched or encouraged by reports that an EU official described Mr Tsipras's treatment by other EU leaders as the equivalent of 'waterboarding' " - no bullying from the EU and Germans then, no sir, that would never happen.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

#GreecewroteoffGermanWWIIdebtsbutGermanywon'treturnthefavour ...... and it's bloody difficult not using the spacebar !

#IsItOnlyTheBritsWhoStillBangOnAboutTheWar?

#ItWasOver60YearsAgoMoveOn

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

An interesting article - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33503330

I was most taken by this bit : "Will the rise and rise of populist anti-EU parties all over Europe be staunched or encouraged by reports that an EU official described Mr Tsipras's treatment by other EU leaders as the equivalent of 'waterboarding' " - no bullying from the EU and Germans then, no sir, that would never happen.

Lots of things have been said by lots of people on both sides. Deal is done, the sun is shining, let's be happy and move on.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

#IsItOnlyTheBritsWhoStillBangOnAboutTheWar?

#ItWasOver60YearsAgoMoveOn

#TypicalProEULetsNotLearnFromHistorylLetsJustForgetItEverHappened

 

[Simster]

#IsItOnlyTheBritsWhoStillBangOnAboutTheWar?

#ItWasOver60YearsAgoMoveOn

Are you says it's isn't relevant because it happened 60 years ago?

 

[Simster]

this isn't quite the case though is it. firstly the debt was restructured and the reforms promised did not follow. second its rather difficult to agree to a debt write off at the very same time as being asked for a new bailout. the German (and other Europeans) position has been "we aren't talking about a write off now", i.e. this is something to discuss in the future, on the quiet preferably while no-ones paying attention.

The problem with your position is that it fails to recognise any responsibility of the lender in the first place. Greece should never have been allowed to enter the Euro all the while fudges were being made and unsustainable Greek debt was being racked up on the back of French and German arms deals.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Are you says it's isn't relevant because it happened 60 years ago?

No. Did not say it's irrelevant.

 

[Simster]

No. Did not say it's irrelevant.

You appeared to rubbish his point by replying that only Brits talk about the war. What did you mean by it then?

 

[Westdene Seagull]

#IsItOnlyTheBritsWhoStillBangOnAboutTheWar?

#ItWasOver60YearsAgoMoveOn

And in a slightly less fashionable way - i.e. no tweet format - by ignoring how the Nazi's came to power risks the EU repeating history. The Germans were severely financially punished after WWI and the poverty and repression led to the direct rise of the far right. Greece already has a very left leaning government. Are the EU really so adamant that all the money should be paid back that they ware willing to see Greeks plunged into even further poverty and risk the rise of extremism ? Then again, the EU aren't known for their intelligence and common sense.

 

[TomandJerry]

Indeed what is on the table as a deal highlights that:

a) there is no long-term future for the Eurozone;

b) the desire on the part of*Eurozonecreditor nations to completely destroy the Greek economy - it can certainly be asserted that this is indeed a worse deal than the 1919 Treaty of Versailles.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

You appeared to rubbish his point by replying that only Brits talk about the war. What did you mean by it then?

My point is that I do not see it as relevant in the Greek/EU discussions. In this particular situation, and given the origins and reason for the EU, I do not think it is a valid or very sensitive argument.

 

[beorhthelm]

The problem with your position is that it fails to recognise any responsibility of the lender in the first place. Greece should never have been allowed to enter the Euro all the while fudges were being made and unsustainable Greek debt was being racked up on the back of French and German arms deals.

this is an incorrect argument, if you look into it you'll find there's a few billion a year spent by Greece on French and German arms (and they spent more on US arms). sure, not clever, but not enough to account for 380bn+ debt, not even a 10th of it. and no, they shouldn't have let them in the euro in the first place. here we are, and they are asking for more money without delivering the reforms asked from the last bailout. everyone knows they cant pay, the expectation is that they at least maintain a pretense they've done as much as possible. then the technocratic EU can apply another fudge.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Are the EU really so adamant that all the money should be paid back that they ware willing to see Greeks plunged into even further poverty and risk the rise of extremism ?

I doubt it. I reckon some will be written off over time.

 

[Simster]

this is an incorrect argument, if you look into it you'll find there's a few billion a year spent by Greece on French and German arms (and they spent more on US arms). sure, not clever, but not enough to account for 380bn+ debt, not even a 10th of it. and no, they shouldn't have let them in the euro in the first place. here we are, and they are asking for more money without delivering the reforms asked from the last bailout. everyone knows they cant pay, the expectation is that they at least maintain a pretense they've done as much as possible. then the technocratic EU can apply another fudge.

My position is that the lenders, those in charge of shoe horning Greece into the eurozone and the right of centre Greek government itself are all equally culpable for this. The Greeks cannot pay it all back, so they need to come up with a formula to reduce the debt. And we all saw what austerity did to the Greeks, it crippled their economy.

tax reforms are certainly needed, but that is along with restructuring AND writing off the absurd loans they've got outstanding.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Now the finer details are emerging it seems, on balance, the best deal for both sides. It still has to be ratified by the Greek parliament though.

I think we can all feel proud as Europeans today.

 

[Beach Hut]

Now the finer details are emerging it seems, on balance, the best deal for both sides. It still has to be ratified by the Greek parliament though.

I think we can all feel proud as Europeans today.

You are a bit optimistic, Greece will be back for more money in around 12 months time and it will just go on and on.

 

[Simster]

You are a bit optimistic, Greece will be back for more money in around 12 months time and it will just go on and on.

Yep. If no debts are written off, and no economic reforms are made, this is simply kicking the can down the road - which is what the EU always seems to do.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Yep. If no debts are written off, and no economic reforms are made, this is simply kicking the can down the road - which is what the EU always seems to do.

But economic reform has been promised. And debt restructure is also been mentioned. I see it more as giving time to Greece to demonstrate it will keep it's fiscal promises. The first step.