Greece crisis: Europe on edge over snap election

[nicko31]

The whole Greece thing just demonstrates how Palace completely got away with it going into administration...

 

[nicko31]

This doesn't pull any punches if you've a spare 5 minutes, what a disaster

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...ng-treated-like-a-hostile-occupied-state.html

Getting the facts right Torygraph!!!

The Greek banks are on the verge of collapse. There is not enough cash left to cover ATM withdrawals of €60bn each day through this week

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

I think we can all feel proud as Europeans today.

Really?

Even you can't really believe that.

Germany and France at loggerheads, German finance minister shouting at his Italian counterpart, the largest state bullying another smaller one forcing years of austerity on it, Greece being allowed to borrow billions of euros purely to pay back money it still owes.

All in the name of trying to save a single one size doesn't fit all currency that cannot be suitable for economies as diverse as Germany and Greece.

The can may have been kicked down the road, but the Euro is flawed, and whilst the idea of a single market is a good one, the idea of a single currency is not.

 

[Guy Crouchback]

I read that Greek administrative workers are preparing a 24-hour general strike on the day that their parliament will vote on accepting the agreement.

It will be interesting to see if anyone notices.

Anyway, as I said before--seeing that everything now rests on Greek integrity and Greek hard work, one doesn't need to be a prophet to predict the final outcome. Greece should never have been allowed in the eurozone, and until they exit it the crises will keep coming back like flies to a sh*t (to use a poetic comparison).

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

I read that Greek administrative workers are preparing a 24-hour general strike on the day that their parliament will vote on accepting the agreement.

It will be interesting to see if anyone notices.

Anyway, as I said before--seeing that everything now rests on Greek integrity and Greek hard work, one doesn't need to be a prophet to predict the final income. Greece should never have been allowed in the eurozone, and until they exit it the crises will keep coming back like flies to a sh*t (to use a poetic comparison).

I agree with your prognosis. And further trouble will only stir anti eu sentiment elsewhere.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

I read that Greek administrative workers are preparing a 24-hour general strike on the day that their parliament will vote on accepting the agreement.

It will be interesting to see if anyone notices.

Anyway, as I said before--seeing that everything now rests on Greek integrity and Greek hard work, one doesn't need to be a prophet to predict the final income. Greece should never have been allowed in the eurozone, and until they exit it the crises will keep coming back like flies to a sh*t (to use a poetic comparison).

They've got to pass four pieces of detailed and complex legislation with 48 hours notice - I doubt very much it will get through. It's an horrendous corruption of democracy - how can 48 hours be enough to properly scrutinize and debate that legislation let alone ensure there aren't any mistakes or unintended consequences in it. You can sure as hell bet Germany and France wouldn't pass such far reaching legislation so quickly but it's OK to force the Greeks to do so.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I read that Greek administrative workers are preparing a 24-hour general strike on the day that their parliament will vote on accepting the agreement.

It will be interesting to see if anyone notices.

Anyway, as I said before--seeing that everything now rests on Greek integrity and Greek hard work, one doesn't need to be a prophet to predict the final income. Greece should never have been allowed in the eurozone, and until they exit it the crises will keep coming back like flies to a sh*t (to use a poetic comparison).

I disagree. I'm a trusting person so I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

They've got to pass four pieces of detailed and complex legislation with 48 hours notice - I doubt very much it will get through. It's an horrendous corruption of democracy - how can 48 hours be enough to properly scrutinize and debate that legislation let alone ensure there aren't any mistakes or unintended consequences in it. You can sure as hell bet Germany and France wouldn't pass such far reaching legislation so quickly but it's OK to force the Greeks to do so.

I thought the government just had to agree on the key items and the key milestones, in principle, initially?

 

[Lenny Rider]

For all their faults the likes of Tony Blair and Gordon Brown should be commended for not scrapping the pound and taking us into the Euro.

What kind of a mess would we be in now?

 

[Guy Crouchback]

I agree with your prognosis. And further trouble will only stir anti eu sentiment elsewhere.

Of course it will. I, for once, hope Poland will stay well away from the eurozone after what happened in Greece, and I bet sentiments are similar in other EU countries who are not in the eurozone.

They've got to pass four pieces of detailed and complex legislation with 48 hours notice - I doubt very much it will get through. It's an horrendous corruption of democracy - how can 48 hours be enough to properly scrutinize and debate that legislation let alone ensure there aren't any mistakes or unintended consequences in it. You can sure as hell bet Germany and France wouldn't pass such far reaching legislation so quickly but it's OK to force the Greeks to do so.

Exactly. Greece is being humiliated, and for what purpose? If they stay in the eurozone they will never get back on their feet. Besides, the current agreement is much harsher on them than the one Greek people said "OXI" to. It just doesn't make sense, no matter how you look at it.

I disagree. I'm a trusting person so I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt.

You're a good man, Herr T. Naive, gullible and not willing to learn from past mistakes, but a kind-hearted person nonentheless.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

For all their faults the likes of Tony Blair and Gordon Brown should be commended for not scrapping the pound and taking us into the Euro.

What kind of a mess would we be in now?

Never thought I'd live to see the day you commend the Labour Party

 

[cunning fergus]

For all their faults the likes of Tony Blair and Gordon Brown should be commended for not scrapping the pound and taking us into the Euro.

What kind of a mess would we be in now?

I think Brown could take more credit than Blair however both actively campaigned for the UK to join the euro, hence Hague adopted the £ to brand his tory election campaign against Labour.

The reticence of the general public at that time to join to euro was a far more significant factor. Polling at that time (early noughties) suggested the British public were more sceptical of the EU than now, and that is why all political parties were not willing to have the referendums they all promised.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3024010.stm

Don't think though that there aren't still zealots still prepared to get the UK into the euro.

http://labourlist.org/2012/06/tony-blairs-instincts-on-the-euro-were-right/

It is heartening that in the light of the ongoing tragedy in Greece that such people who ignore the realities of the euro's evident weaknesses can be seen for what they are..........quite mad.

 

[Guy Crouchback]

Greek press is not very happy with the agreement either. My Greek is very rudimentary, but the newspaper in the middle seems to be saying "Greece in Auschwitz"...

 

[AlastairWatts]

They've got to pass four pieces of detailed and complex legislation with 48 hours notice - I doubt very much it will get through. It's an horrendous corruption of democracy - how can 48 hours be enough to properly scrutinize and debate that legislation let alone ensure there aren't any mistakes or unintended consequences in it. You can sure as hell bet Germany and France wouldn't pass such far reaching legislation so quickly but it's OK to force the Greeks to do so.

Read somewhere that it didn't work with tanks so now the Germans are trying it with banks. I have this horrible vision of the UK voting to leave the EU, then the whole lot of 'em will turn upon us. Given the way they've behaved with Greece, they haven't exactly promoted the Euopean 'ideal', have they? The whole rotten edifice is, I hope, about to come tumbling down...

 

[Hastings gull]

Read somewhere that it didn't work with tanks so now the Germans are trying it with banks. I have this horrible vision of the UK voting to leave the EU, then the whole lot of 'em will turn upon us. Given the way they've behaved with Greece, they haven't exactly promoted the Euopean 'ideal', have they? The whole rotten edifice is, I hope, about to come tumbling down...

It looks rather as if you are desperate to find fault with the EU and this is your main aim. Doubtless many folk are unhappy with the EU, and I am sure you are not alone. However, do you not feel that in this case, the Greeks might just have themselves to blame? Their profligate ways for many years have contributed to this and every bail out has been with conditions imposed on them, which suggests quite strongly, that, left to their own devices, they certainly would have continued their usual habits and returned for yet another bail-out. The level of austerity there must be awful, but over many years, they must have seen this crisis coming, and whilst I am not an economist and could not comment authoritatively on such matters, I would think that they did relatively little, expecting that the EU will help them.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

I don't particularly care if I'm ruled by Goons in Brussels or Goons in Westminster. The rules they impose on me will always hack me off at times regardless of source. I have yet to be able to change Westminster policy with my vote, so where the particular Goon in charge has his office makes no difference to me.


I am convinced that economically we are more likely to be prosperous in the EU, despite the spin of Farage and crew, and for that reason alone I'll be voting IN whenever they have this referendum.

 

[Triggaaar]

I don't particularly care if I'm ruled by Goons in Brussels or Goons in Westminster. The rules they impose on me will always hack me off at times regardless of source. I have yet to be able to change Westminster policy with my vote, so where the particular Goon in charge has his office makes no difference to me.

That's a strange view. Have the parties you've voted for never been elected? Even if they haven't most people in the UK have had a government of their choosing, to make changes that reflect their views, so we're much more likely to get what we want than with Germany, France and Italy deciding what we should do.

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

It looks rather as if you are desperate to find fault with the EU and this is your main aim. Doubtless many folk are unhappy with the EU, and I am sure you are not alone. However, do you not feel that in this case, the Greeks might just have themselves to blame? Their profligate ways for many years have contributed to this and every bail out has been with conditions imposed on them, which suggests quite strongly, that, left to their own devices, they certainly would have continued their usual habits and returned for yet another bail-out. The level of austerity there must be awful, but over many years, they must have seen this crisis coming, and whilst I am not an economist and could not comment authoritatively on such matters, I would think that they did relatively little, expecting that the EU will help them.

There's an awful lot of people, and institutions, to 'blame' for the position that Greece finds itself in.

You're right that Greek has overspent for years. Early retirement, generous pensions, massive failure to collect taxes (from individuals and Corporate) massive military spending, even having the Olympic Games was a huge loss, (and it's a crime that the facilities not even used nowadays.)

But the EU, IMF and the ECB are surely just as culpable,failing to audit the Greek books before allowing them to join the euro, lending Greece money that had no chance of being repaid, and the idea that an economy like that of Greece can share the same currency as one like Germany is laughable.

Since this current Government has come to power, things have gone from bad to worse, but after years of austerity, when a Party comes along and promises to reverse the programme, they will be popular, and you can understand why with 25% unemployment and 50% youth unemployment how they were elected.

The most left wing Party ever to be elected in Europe, in five months have helped bring Greece to the point of bankruptcy.

That's the problem with socialism, at some point you will eventually run out of other people's money.

But individual Greeks are surely not be blame and it's amazing that some on this board show no signs of empathy with the Greek people, and seem to see this deal as a triumph for the European project.

#thisisisacoup
.

 

[Mellor 3 Ward 4]

Quite. Centre-right German and Greek governments form an integral part of cooking the books to get Greece into the Eurozone, including allowing an astonishing level of borrowing. Then when the Greek economy predictably collapses (shrinks by a quarter in a few short years) owing to the austerity being demanded to pay it back, a left wing government is voted in. It demands some of the lenders bear some of the brunt of the pain - and they are given short thrift by that same centre-right German government.

No debt write-off on the table. Greeks will die. It absolutely stinks. There is nothing to be proud about.

Spot on.

 

[Hastings gull]

There's an awful lot of people, and institutions, to 'blame' for the position that Greece finds itself in.

You're right that Greek has overspent for years. Early retirement, generous pensions, massive failure to collect taxes (from individuals and Corporate) massive military spending, even having the Olympic Games was a huge loss, (and it's a crime that the facilities not even used nowadays.)

But the EU, IMF and the ECB are surely just as culpable,failing to audit the Greek books before allowing them to join the euro, lending Greece money that had no chance of being repaid, and the idea that an economy like that of Greece can share the same currency as one like Germany is laughable.

Since this current Government has come to power, things have gone from bad to worse, but after years of austerity, when a Party comes along and promises to reverse the programme, they will be popular, and you can understand why with 25% unemployment and 50% youth unemployment how they were elected.

The most left wing Party ever to be elected in Europe, in five months have helped bring Greece to the point of bankruptcy.

That's the problem with socialism, at some point you will eventually run out of other people's money.

But individual Greeks are surely not be blame and it's amazing that some on this board show no signs of empathy with the Greek people, and seem to see this deal as a triumph for the European project.

#thisisisacoup
.

Many thanks for your reply and I do agree with much of what you say. I don't really know but l am sure that I have read on here that the Greeks lied to join the EU/Euro etc, and fiddled the books. If this is the case, then the lender would not be so guilty, though you might have thought that they would have some sort of inkling as to the weakness of the Greek economy. I could not comment on this with any degree of authority, as I know so little about economics. I thought exactly the same as to why the current government was elected - in desperate economic times, people tend to turn to more extreme parties who offer attractive alternatives, and I suppose you cannot blame them, much the same as the Germans turned to Hitler in the 1930s.
I think your final point is a fascinating one. Personally, I have always been rather wary of the argument that it is not individual ordinary (in this case) Greeks to blame - but surely they are ones who did not pay the taxes, wanted early retirement, went along with the euro etc etc. When the chips are down, then of course they all regard themselves as innocent victims, but are they?