[Politics] God(s)

[WATFORD zero]

I disagree. I see religion as a man made and is a method of control over others, ie dictating how they are supposed act on their beliefs. Most religions survive due to indoctrination from a young age. Therefore people were going to war due to differences between religions. One religion wanting to control another.

Sorry, disagree. If that were the case why do you have all the various factions in all religions, surely they would want the biggest single religion and solidarity across it if wanting to take over another ?

It's always about wealth and power. The troubles in NI, the problems in the ME ? Which is why you get all the factions (as often as not, different factions of the same religions) fighting for can gain the most power and wealth.

 

[The Lemming Stomper]

Pascal had the right idea...Stick to his wager and believe a bit, just in case

 

[chickens]

This is impossible to articulate without sounding even more of an idiot than usual.

I believe in a commonality present in all existence, that we are largely in the darkness trying to find our way to greater understanding, though often for selfish motives. I believe in our shared humanity and believe that life extends to all but the simplest organisms, who may still in turn develop into more than they currently are.

If you choose to call that, plus all that exists “God” then I believe in God. I suspect my beliefs would make me a heretic in most organised religions. There’s a distinct absence of hell, heaven, judgement and hierarchy.

While there is a great deal of wisdom to be found in the Bible (and other religious texts) no text should be taken entirely literally, or be regarded as “sacred” or “unquestionable” to my mind, and people come before texts always.

The closest to an organized religion that I am at peace with would be the Quakers, though suspect they would find my concept of God distressingly abstract.

Put me down as non-theistic Quaker/other. I see God almost as a synonym for “everything.” - not a personality arbitrarily setting out commandments to obey.

 

[Quebec Seagull]

Good point.

Rather impressive really that so many people claim absolutely to believe God does exist or absolutely know he/she doesn’t.

It’s living with the uncertainty and embracing paradox that is the real challenge.

I've always viewed the matter from a statistician's point of view. Since the creation ex nihilo of the universe is more probable and credible than one created by a sentient being -- the sentient being's existence only further begging the question --, I see no reason to 'hedge my bets' and sit on the fence, 'just in case'. Well, that rationale along with a lifetime of voracious reading (of scientific, historical, anthropological, mythological/religious materials) and critical thinking.

Failing belief in an afterlife, do I wish we could live longer, healthier lives to enjoy and accomplish even more than we can now? Of course, but it's all relative, isn't it? The average lifespan has doubled in just the last 150 years; several more decades are likely to be added if scientific progress doesn't stall and the state of the world and people's habits allow for it. At the risk of sounding trite, live each day as though it's your last. (Easier to do the older you get!)

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[Thunder Bolt]

I've always viewed the matter from a statistician's point of view. Since the creation ex nihilo of the universe is more probable and credible than one created by a sentient being -- the sentient being's existence only further begging the question --, I see no reason to 'hedge my bets' and sit on the fence, 'just in case'. Well, that rationale along with a lifetime of voracious reading (of scientific, historical, anthropological, mythological/religious materials) and critical thinking.

Failing belief in an afterlife, do I wish we could live longer, healthier lives to enjoy and accomplish even more than we can now? Of course, but it's all relative, isn't it? The average lifespan has doubled in just the last 150 years; several more decades are likely to be added if scientific progress doesn't stall and the state of the world and people's habits allow for it. At the risk of sounding trite, live each day as though it's your last. (Easier to do the older you get!)

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Just a comment on lifespan. It’s an average lifespan which has increased because infant mortality has reduced massively. There have always been people living to a good old age providing they had enough food.

 

[Quebec Seagull]

Pascal had the right idea...Stick to his wager and believe a bit, just in case

In case of what? If there really is a god sitting in judgement over your life, deciding whether you're deserving of eternal life or damnation, don't you think that god would rather you'd lived a good life than worshipped them 'correctly' or even believed in them? Can you imagine a parent disowning their child because the child had chosen to become, say, a chef instead of a doctor, as they'd hoped? It beggars belief that a parent's love could be so conditional, so arbitrary.

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[GoldstoneVintage]

According to Yuval Noah Harari, religions are 'inter-subjective realities' in that they exist simply because lots of people believe in them. Same with money and a lot of other things that impact our lives.

 

[Quebec Seagull]

Just a comment on lifespan. It’s an average lifespan which has increased because infant mortality has reduced massively. There have always been people living to a good old age providing they had enough food.

Yes, hence my comment -- perhaps insufficiently developed -- on scientific/medical progress and a population's readiness to adopt new habits and technologies that prolong life. Cases of people reaching today's average lifespan of 80 years were extremely rare. Peaceful conditions and plentiful food were necessary, but so too were exceptional good health and luck in avoiding any type of virus or bacteria that could kill or debilitate.

Conclusion: better to believe in science than in prayer. I won't get into the concurrent need of having political and moral (as opposed to religious) systems that lead to enlightened government dedicated to the welfare of all its citizens -- that seems a given to me.

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[Zeberdi]

. At the risk of sounding trite, live each day as though it's your last. (Easier to do the older you get!)

Interesting post. It’s not trite imo.

It’s the idea that you find the ‘eternal’ in the present moment. Some monk or other called it the ‘practice of the presence of God’ but in meditation it just means ‘mindfulness’ or ‘emptying’ the mind.

So much baggage us humans carry around with us is because of past hurts and resentments and anxieties about the future stop us from finding inner peace - if we can ‘live each day as our last’, then we are living in the present…

Science explains the ‘how’ but not the ‘why’. The ‘why’ leads to the paradox and uncertainty. If we can just accept that life exists purely on a physical level and has no intrinsic meaning other than biological, we would probably be much happier but people ask questions. They want their lives to be significant and have meaning so for millions the religious narrative provides that.

Of course, some people might chose to spend their last day on earth rather more hedonistically - I certainly wouldn’t be worrying about my calorie intake if I knew it was my last day on earth nor would I care about some twat that did me wrong 20 years ago or even yesterday!

 

[Quebec Seagull]

Interesting post. It’s not trite imo.

It’s the idea that you find the ‘eternal’ in the present moment. Some monk or other called it the ‘practice of the presence of God’ but in meditation it just means ‘mindfulness’ or ‘emptying’ the mind.

So much baggage us humans carry around with us is because of past hurts and resentments and anxieties about the future stop us from finding inner peace - if we can ‘live each day as our last’, then we are living in the present…

Science explains the ‘how’ but not the ‘why’.

The ‘why’ leads to the paradox and uncertainty.

Of course, some people might chose to spend their last day on earth rather more hedonistically - I certainly wouldn’t be worrying about my calorie intake if I knew it was my last day on earth nor would I care about some twat that did me wrong 20 years ago or even yesterday!

The 'why' is irrelevant if you live in the present and enjoy the pleasures the day brings. Especially if, as I say in another post in this thread, a truly kind god wouldn't refuse you entrance into heaven if you've lived a good life without necessarily believing in them or worshipping them 'properly'. If the opposite were true -- as too many adherents of various religions believe --, then f*** your petty and vindictive god, who's obviously less virtuous than me.

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[Triggaaar]

I don't believe or disbelieve, I just don't think about it and just live my life trying to do the best I can and always willing to help if I can.

By sleeping?

 

[Cheggers]

It's all nonsense isn't it ?

Think of it like this, if you burned all the science books and all the religious books and started again, after a while there would be science books again with all the same information.
Religious books would re-appear but would be full of a whole load of different nonsense.

You can't burn books. That's heresy!

 

[Brian Fantana]

Didn't Ricky Gervais say something similar? There is no test to prove if there is a God but there is for Science, Science and Religion are not compatible.

You say religion and science aren't compatabile and yet some of the most famous scientists past and present identified themselves as being religious. Newton, Galileo, Clerk Maxwell, Pasteur, Bacon, Kelvin, Einstein, Faraday etc.

FWIW, I'm agnostic so don't really have any skin in the game in the argument.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Wow. 80% say no.

I find that incredibly reassuring.

One of the most liberating moments in my life was when I realized that the only thing between me and a good life was myself and other people (and bacteria and viruses of course, with the occasional fungus and protozoa thrown in).

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

You say religion and science aren't compatabile and yet some of the most famous scientists past and present identified themselves as being religious. Newton, Galileo, Clerk Maxwell, Pasteur, Bacon, Kelvin, Einstein, Faraday etc.

FWIW, I'm agnostic so don't really have any skin in the game in the argument.

Yes. And it held some of them back. In other cases it didn't matter.

Darwin was also religious. The implications of his findings were a massive problem for him.

In Einstein's case he relegated god to an irrelevance.

Belief and science are not compatible if an individual disregards a scientific finding if it conflicts with their beliefs.
Otherwise it is as relevant as the compatibility between science and vegetarianism.

 

[The Lemming Stomper]

In case of what?

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Athiests...You must be feeling a right bunch of nit-wits !

 

[Quebec Seagull]

You say religion and science aren't compatabile and yet some of the most famous scientists past and present identified themselves as being religious. Newton, Galileo, Clerk Maxwell, Pasteur, Bacon, Kelvin, Einstein, Faraday etc.

FWIW, I'm agnostic so don't really have any skin in the game in the argument.

But would they be believers if they were alive today?

Einstein, BTW, was an agnostic, at most: "I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."

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[Coldeanseagull]

It's a hard no from me. It's up to other people if they believe in a sky fairy or not, as long as they don't involve me in their delusions

 

[Zeberdi]

Belief and science are not compatible if an individual disregards a scientific finding if it conflicts with their beliefs.
Otherwise it is as relevant as the compatibility between science and vegetarianism.

They also don’t have to be mutually exclusive as some atheists claim.

Science provides the observational framework which religion has to operate in but it is not able to even answer if the universe had a beginning yet. If science proves that the universe is eternal then we could legitimately ask what purpose is there for a creator God?

Brian Cox has my kind of approach as a scientist - great humility and in awe of nature!

 

[Lyndhurst 14]

I've listened to Carlin's shows so often that I knew you were quoting him halfway through the first sentence, lol!

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I first saw George Carlin on HBO when I was living in the States and really liked his style of irreverent comedy not just about religion but also about Americans and their foibles.

Another show I saw there, the Righteous Gemstones, is on Sky comedy at the moment. It really rips into religion with all its hypocrisy and all the grifters who make a very nice living out of it from all the gullible people who are only to happy to cough up