[News] Girls not girls & boys not boys! Gender neutrality !

[WildWood]

I've just pointed out one of them as being factually wrong. And it's a material fact.

If he doesn't understand the history, his right to comment - let alone comment self-authoritatively - is severely diminished.

The basic scenario of ‘men are men & women are women’ biologically is what I agree with. I don’t know of any time in history when this wasn’t the case?

 

[Wilko]

I think some posters need to research the difference between sex and gender before they launch into the debate! Of course the vast majority of people are born with a set sex, gender is socially constructed ideas however which can change over time and from place to place. You only have to look at the ridiculously high make suicide rates and high levels of female anorexia do understand that early gender stereotypes we set our sons and daughters can be devastatingly damaging.

 

[The Large One]

The basic scenario of ‘men are men & women are women’ biologically is what I agree with. I don’t know of any time in history when this wasn’t the case?

That's not what I quoted.

Also - the binary concept of men & women isn't absolute. Never has been.

 

[The Large One]

I think some posters need to research the difference between sex and gender before they launch into the debate! Of course the vast majority of people are born with a set sex, gender is socially constructed ideas however which can change over time and from place to place. You only have to look at the ridiculously high make suocide rates and high levels of female anorexia do understand that early gender stereotypes we set our sons and daughters can be devastatingly damaging.

Quite. And therein lies another issue. The fella in the video posted by WildWood was saying sex and gender are one and the same, which further undermines his poor argument.

We already know they're not.

 

[btnbelle]

The body we are born in has always defined our gender. It is clear that for a small percentage of the population that some people don't identify with the body they are born with.

It must be awful for them. I am sure they would prefer to feel they have the right body for the gender, that they identify with. I do worry that this will confuse children who just grow up as tomboys, if adults make too much of such behaviour.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

I think most of the debate around gender centres around the pre-conceived notions of what boys and girls should be.

Might be wrong here, but aren't boys the ones with the willies?

 

[Eeyore]

Couldn’t agree more. The blokes a complete tool. Can’t disagree with any of his points on this vid though.

Applying reason, and that's why, now I've grown up a bit, I am loathed to call out anyone who holds 'right wing' ideology as being *insert insulting name here*, he often makes some interesting points.

My problem is that his fabric is one of absolutes. I don't think there are such things.

He's right to say that physical gender is absolute. Simply because that is what is presented to us. However, he fails to understand that our biological make up is the start of our development and not the completion. Most of our development is formed through environmental influence. Yet despite this some escape that form of construction.

A dear friend of mine is transgender. I didn't know until recently. I often thought "This can't be right, he must be ill". This is more because I don't want to have to deal with it and less because of my understanding of his situation. And even now, I find myself using the word 'his'.....

So this subject is a tough one for me. But I am at base camp in opposing the rhetoric of some on his thread. Ignorant I am not. A bit confused I am. But I'm trying to understand it- and I think others would be wise to do so.

 

[midnight_rendezvous]

Might be wrong here, but aren't boys the ones with the willies?

Not sure if attempting to be facetious or just unaware of the difference between gender and sex

 

[melias shoes]

Might be wrong here, but aren't boys the ones with the willies?

Yep that's it.
By pandering to a minority actively encouraged by the liberal minded amongst us the majority of our children are possibly going to grow up confused. Now I realise there are children who see themselves in the wrong body and want to do something about it, that's fine, but to subject the rest of children to this is unnecessary.

 

[Lady Whistledown]

I do worry that this will confuse children who just grow up as tomboys, if adults make too much of such behaviour.

Really? I was a proper tomboy when I was about ten. My Dad started taking me to the Albion. I never felt like my gender identity was being confused by that, nor did my parents, as far as I'm aware, fear that it would lead me to confusing thoughts. I loved football, cricket, lots of stuff that society then and now deems to be boys' things. To this day, it drives me crazy that toy shops are stuffed full of hideous pink princess shit "for girls", that many parents condition their daughters to like, whether consciously or not. One of my friends' daughters asked for a football shirt for her sixth birthday, and goes to World Book Day events at school dressed as Batman or Spiderman. It absolutely gladdens my heart to see pictures of her during those events, surrounded by two dozen little princesses from Frozen. She knows what she likes, and she's confident with it. The boys love her to bits. She is ace.

Imagine for one second what trans people have to go through in life, and all the shit that engenders (let's be honest, we have ALL- whether consciously or not- done a double take when somebody walks past on the street presenting as female, but with clear signs of having been born a male)- do you really think they'd do that on a whim? To spend an entire lifetime being stared at, which is basically the case for pretty much all men who transition to women unless they're fortunate enough to be able to afford vast amounts of cosmetic surgery. To have issues with your paperwork for everything and to be questioned on that. To have to relate everything to the previous life you're doing your best to escape from when, for example, applying for a job.

I can't imagine how difficult all that must be, and how shit it must make a person feel at times. I've tended to take the view that, if somebody really is prepared to endure all of that that, then their feelings of gender identity must be pretty bloody strong, and way more so than any of us could perhaps conceive.

In any case: is it any skin off my nose if somebody decides to present as male, female or whatever? Does it impact on my life in any negative way? Absolutely not, so I really can't see it as something worth panicking about, as these clickbait newspaper articles and online columns seem to suggest.

 

[ATFC Seagull]

Yep that's it.
By pandering to a minority actively encouraged by the liberal minded amongst us the majority of our children are possibly going to grow up confused. Now I realise there are children who see themselves in the wrong body and want to do something about it, that's fine, but to subject the rest of children to this is unnecessary.

How are they subjected to anything, apart from being asked to accept the other child for who they want to be?

 

[melias shoes]

How are they subjected to anything, apart from being asked to accept the other child for who they want to be?

Yes your right subjected wasn't the right word. However as I said I see there are children in the wrong body and it must be awful for them but deal with them and let the other kids grow up as they are.

 

[beorhthelm]

Yep that's it.
By pandering to a minority actively encouraged by the liberal minded amongst us the majority of our children are possibly going to grow up confused. Now I realise there are children who see themselves in the wrong body and want to do something about it, that's fine, but to subject the rest of children to this is unnecessary.

heres an important aspect, just how big a issue is the genuine underlying condition of gender-ambivilence, verses the perception. something i read (shame i cant recall where, but it was a favourable article) noted there are 800 children having clinical treatment (hormone thearapy). 800. that means most towns have no one recgonised clinicial.

then some are telling us we must research the subject before we debate it, which is very well meaning but ignore the subject is very esoteric and our everyday language is very much focused around the sex=gender and not really around gender as role. maybe its a way to shut down the discussion, prehaps we shouldnt talk about if so many are so uninformed?

and then we have the LGB community through another few letters further mudding the waters. its not about sexual activity but heres a group immeditaly making that association between gender and sexuality.

heres a list of genders you can identify as. its from a "pro" site so not pee taking. theres is another site i looking for which had gender of the day, with coloured flags for each one, couldnt work out if that was serious or not.

 

[Wilko]

Yep that's it.
By pandering to a minority actively encouraged by the liberal minded amongst us the majority of our children are possibly going to grow up confused. Now I realise there are children who see themselves in the wrong body and want to do something about it, that's fine, but to subject the rest of children to this is unnecessary.

Once again you are talking about sex and not gender

 

[BadFish]

Applying reason, and that's why, now I've grown up a bit, I am loathed to call out anyone who holds 'right wing' ideology as being *insert insulting name here*, he often makes some interesting points.

My problem is that his fabric is one of absolutes. I don't think there are such things.

He's right to say that physical gender is absolute. Simply because that is what is presented to us. However, he fails to understand that our biological make up is the start of our development and not the completion. Most of our development is formed through environmental influence. Yet despite this some escape that form of construction.

A dear friend of mine is transgender. I didn't know until recently. I often thought "This can't be right, he must be ill". This is more because I don't want to have to deal with it and less because of my understanding of his situation. And even now, I find myself using the word 'his'.....

So this subject is a tough one for me. But I am at base camp in opposing the rhetoric of some on his thread. Ignorant I am not. A bit confused I am. But I'm trying to understand it- and I think others would be wise to do so.

I agree with much of this and also concede to be at the beginnings of my understanding of this subject. I have to say that the notion of sex and gender being different with one a born with physicsl attribute and the other a socially constructed set of norms and expectations makes my understanding far clearer.

Far more useful than the sensationalised and oversimplified claptrap so often offered up on this subject.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

 

[larus]

"For all of human history - boy meant boy and girl meant girl".

Wrong. He clearly has no concept of the history of the meaning of those two words. And from there, it's fairly obvious he isn't dealing with research or history or even the flawed notion of binary biology, he's dealing with his own agenda.

I think you’re wrong in focussing on his use of the word “Boy” and “Girl”. As we’re all aware, language evolves over time and words morph into a different meaning. It evens happens now - i was always taught the the word “can” is to be able to and is different from “may”. However, the accepted use of can now is more like may.

So, ignoring the morphed words, his implied message is that your generals determine your sex. Not what your mind is telling you.

I do wonder where this whole thing ends? Can I say I’m a different age and race because I want to? Why not, surely I should have the right to?

I know for the people who have confusion over their gender it will be tough, but lets help them and not impact others. I never forced my kids into anything and my son has ended up loving sport etc and my daughter is more arty/creative, but thats been their choice. I would have supported whatever they’d wanted, but would never have been upset if they’d been called boy/girl at school.

Just my opinion.

 

[BadFish]

Really? I was a proper tomboy when I was about ten. My Dad started taking me to the Albion. I never felt like my gender identity was being confused by that, nor did my parents, as far as I'm aware, fear that it would lead me to confusing thoughts. I loved football, cricket, lots of stuff that society then and now deems to be boys' things. To this day, it drives me crazy that toy shops are stuffed full of hideous pink princess shit "for girls", that many parents condition their daughters to like, whether consciously or not. One of my friends' daughters asked for a football shirt for her sixth birthday, and goes to World Book Day events at school dressed as Batman or Spiderman. It absolutely gladdens my heart to see pictures of her during those events, surrounded by two dozen little princesses from Frozen. She knows what she likes, and she's confident with it. The boys love her to bits. She is ace.

Imagine for one second what trans people have to go through in life, and all the shit that engenders (let's be honest, we have ALL- whether consciously or not- done a double take when somebody walks past on the street presenting as female, but with clear signs of having been born a male)- do you really think they'd do that on a whim? To spend an entire lifetime being stared at, which is basically the case for pretty much all men who transition to women unless they're fortunate enough to be able to afford vast amounts of cosmetic surgery. To have issues with your paperwork for everything and to be questioned on that. To have to relate everything to the previous life you're doing your best to escape from when, for example, applying for a job.

I can't imagine how difficult all that must be, and how shit it must make a person feel at times. I've tended to take the view that, if somebody really is prepared to endure all of that that, then their feelings of gender identity must be pretty bloody strong, and way more so than any of us could perhaps conceive.

In any case: is it any skin off my nose if somebody decides to present as male, female or whatever? Does it impact on my life in any negative way? Absolutely not, so I really can't see it as something worth panicking about, as these clickbait newspaper articles and online columns seem to suggest.

Brilliant post.

You last paragraph is spot on, i feel that if this discussion helps people to feel less isolated less 'different' or weird then it is worth having. It seems to be that society talking about this stuff will have a positive effect on eating disorders, self harm and suicide. Aside from the hysterical articles you mention i fail to see the problem in having a discussion about it. At the very least it will hopefully lessen the instances of being told to "man up" or 'grow a pair' if one dares to discuss a problem or complaint. Or even worse the jibes that get bandied about on here about not being an Alpha male. To me it is about accepting people the way they are and understanding the influences and pressure we put on people to fit into the expected gender molds.

 

[btnbelle]

Really? I was a proper tomboy when I was about ten. My Dad started taking me to the Albion. I never felt like my gender identity was being confused by that, nor did my parents, as far as I'm aware, fear that it would lead me to confusing thoughts. I loved football, cricket, lots of stuff that society then and now deems to be boys' things. To this day, it drives me crazy that toy shops are stuffed full of hideous pink princess shit "for girls", that many parents condition their daughters to like, whether consciously or not. One of my friends' daughters asked for a football shirt for her sixth birthday, and goes to World Book Day events at school dressed as Batman or Spiderman. It absolutely gladdens my heart to see pictures of her during those events, surrounded by two dozen little princesses from Frozen. She knows what she likes, and she's confident with it. The boys love her to bits. She is ace.

Imagine for one second what trans people have to go through in life, and all the shit that engenders (let's be honest, we have ALL- whether consciously or not- done a double take when somebody walks past on the street presenting as female, but with clear signs of having been born a male)- do you really think they'd do that on a whim? To spend an entire lifetime being stared at, which is basically the case for pretty much all men who transition to women unless they're fortunate enough to be able to afford vast amounts of cosmetic surgery. To have issues with your paperwork for everything and to be questioned on that. To have to relate everything to the previous life you're doing your best to escape from when, for example, applying for a job.

I can't imagine how difficult all that must be, and how shit it must make a person feel at times. I've tended to take the view that, if somebody really is prepared to endure all of that that, then their feelings of gender identity must be pretty bloody strong, and way more so than any of us could perhaps conceive.

In any case: is it any skin off my nose if somebody decides to present as male, female or whatever? Does it impact on my life in any negative way? Absolutely not, so I really can't see it as something worth panicking about, as these clickbait newspaper articles and online columns seem to suggest.

Its great that we can all express ourselves and behave the way we choose. It sounds like you had a wonderful childhood. My concern isn’t for a child who is a tomboy. Just that some parents may over-react. And make more of it than how parents would have treated children in the past. Or if a child is at school and genuinely gets confused when they are really just tomboy and nothing more. If they had a friend who was trans, it may make a child over think being a tomboy, when years ago, they wouldn’t of thought more of it.

Hopefully everyone will be sensible. Maybe it will help raise a debate of gender at a much younger age. I have heard it reported that some children grow up, sure they are trans and later regret having had treatment. A minority, i’m sure but it does show how difficult it is for all concerned. It is clear that the subject requires a great deal of sensitivity.

I have a friend who had a daughter who is now her son. It is certainly difficult for everyone. Family and friends who only want the best for the child. I cannot imagine how difficult it must be. I can try and that seems hard enough. The grief parents go through is difficult too, at a time they are for the most part trying to do the right thing for their child.

I definitely don’t think anyone does it on a whim. Just there is potential for confusion. Not every child has supportive parents and some children are born in bigoted families.

I have great sympathy for anyone faced with transgender related issues. It is no skin off my nose either. Live and let live. I was only concerned that a child may be encouraged towards another gender when they are just a tomboy.

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

I think most of the debate around gender centres around the pre-conceived notions of what boys and girls should be. Girls especially are pigeonholed at such an early age and it greatly effects their self-confidence and their early life aspirations and ambitions. Oh the flip side young boys struggle with dealing with their emotions.

Your first sentence is excellent. You undermine it by supporting society’s agenda that women are the ones that are more affected by these pre-conceived ideas - unfortunately, both sexes are massively affected by it, just in totally different ways.

The sad thing about it actually, is that it’s almost become a negative to be a man that shows typically manly characteristics or a woman that enjoys typically girly things.

 

[BadFish]

Your first sentence is excellent. You undermine it by supporting society’s agenda that women are the ones that are more affected by these pre-conceived ideas - unfortunately, both sexes are massively affected by it, just in totally different ways.

The sad thing about it actually, is that it’s almost become a negative to be a man that shows typically manly characteristics or a woman that enjoys typically girly things.

I think this is the crux of the discussion, you suggest that it is almost a negative to me a manly man or girly girl on the slip side it is also a negative to be an un manly man or an non girly girl. I think that if we discuss and analyse this stuff we might come to the understanding that people can just be what they are without the judgement of what society says they should be.