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Fulham vs Brighton & Hove Albion *** Official Match Thread ***
- Thread starter Dick Head
- Start date
Mr Banana
Tedious chump
I drank ferociously before the game tonight, as is traditional with me for any away game or, indeed, occasion outside my bedroom with humans, so my views are invariably skewed. I suspect Jones just had the element of luck which a cursed manager such as Hyypia does not, where O'Grady, say, won an occasional header. Bennett's burst into the box for the penalty was as marvellously incongruous as 'lumo's which won us the penalty at Cardiff all those years ago. But anyway, the atmosphere among the fans and players was a great throwback, maybe cos it's more familiar to us all only to win away once every few months in spectacular fashion. Bravo, hope we celebrate this for ages and never go back into the zone. Calde was great. Two defensive midfielders! Rocket science has been (possibly forcibly) enacted. Hooray!
OzMike
Well-known member
Let us hope that Wigan don't get any more than a draw with Sheff.
My table accounts for cup games, i.e. the manager's entire reign. It's only fair to judge a manager's reign by his actual reign, not just part of it.
Giving 3pts for cup wins, Hyypia's "pts"/game average was 1.08 (ninth worst). Jones's current average of 2.00 makes his the second best managerial reign (behind Hinshelwood and Booker's joint reign of two games, two wins).
That's not why your table is wrong, it's wrong because it counts draws and losses as equal (until two managers are on an equal win percentage). Although from your latest post I see you're using point averages, which is how it should be.
Including cup games in not necessarily a good thing, as some managers will have games against teams a couple of divisions below us, while others will have games against managers a couple of divisions above us.
SweatyMexican
Well-known member
- Mar 31, 2013
- 4,155
Both 2-1 wins, both away v Huddersfield and Swansea October 2001 between Mickey Adams first reign and Peter Taylor.
Thanks. The team was on a high and of course it was a lower league. I think Jones has a tad more pedigree and of course we have NOT been on a high, and the current Championship is a completely different kettle of fish. case study scenario to the third tier 13 years ago.
If it was more important than just an internet discussion, there would be a need to factor in various factors that impact on the game (it wouldn't be limited to cup games, but also include things like budget compared to others in the division, injury lists, fixture build up etc).
But essentially:
When we play a team in divisions below us we often send out weaker teams, give run outs to reserves or give kids a chance
When we play a team in divisions above us we often face their reserves, their kids.
Factoring those will often counter each other.
My table is simplistic, yes. But "best manager" is still quite subjective, and not necessarily dictated by win rates, points per game, or any other statistic, they can be a feature of discussion, but there is so much more to it.
My initial comment about Jones's ascent was meant very tongue in cheek.
They don't counter each other enough, as more often than not the team in the higher division wins. An option would be to apply a weighting (say 50%) to the cup games.
Of course - I was only complaining that your table had Jones as our joint worst manager with 0 wins, as point average is more important than win %.
A poor Brighton team comfortably won away at lower league teams and were comfortably beaten by Totting Ham this season.
Exactly.
A poor league one Brighton team beat premier league man city, then lost to luton.
A very good league one Brighton team struggled against FC united, then beat championship watford and portsmouth
A decent Championship brighton team struggled against Wrexham, and gillingham, then beat premier league Sunderland and Newcastle
The division a team is in is not the be all and end all of things.
fine. so taking cup games into the equation gives an unreliable assessment of form then!
Not really. Because the extension of that argument then becomes if you're a middling team in the league who loses against the lower teams, but wins against the higher teams you can't trust league form either.
A good manager uses his squad wisely, he picks the right team, the right tactics and gives them the right attitude. This can lead to success against better teams, against teams in higher divisions. If we discount the cup games because they are against teams in other divisions we ignore the great management involved in overcoming "better" opposition, and ignore the poor management that comes from failure against "worse" teams.
The only positive I have to offer you Acker, is that it's very unlike you to talk such shit 
It is a simple fact that the teams in the higher division win cup games more often than they lose them. Also, what are you doing about cup games that are draws after 90 minutes? Are you giving managers the advantage of another 30 minutes to get the 3 points, or are you ignoring the performance of the manager for that time?
So count a percentage of cup games.
It is a simple fact that the teams in the higher division win cup games more often than they lose them. Also, what are you doing about cup games that are draws after 90 minutes? Are you giving managers the advantage of another 30 minutes to get the 3 points, or are you ignoring the performance of the manager for that time?
The only positive I have to offer you Acker, is that it's very unlike you to talk such shit
So count a percentage of cup games.
It is a simple fact that the teams in the higher division win cup games more often than they lose them. Also, what are you doing about cup games that are draws after 90 minutes? Are you giving managers the advantage of another 30 minutes to get the 3 points, or are you ignoring the performance of the manager for that time?
It's a simple fact that teams at the top end of division win more games than those at the lower end. We don't factor that into league performance.
The weight people will put in cup v league, wins, losses, injuries, budgets, club level, etc. etc. will differ from person to person. My comments are only meant to explain why, for a simple discussion point such as a football messageboard, including cup games is fine.
If you are demanding an inarguable, precisely accurate assessment of a manager's record you can't just stop at "they're a prem team so a victory there means more, they're a league two team a victory there means less" because those differences exist within a division, so league successes will need to be accounted for along with injuries, budgets, the ground.
Jimbob also dismissed the victories of Booker and Hinshelwood because they were league 1. So he clearly thinks that, despite having a league 1 team playing against other league one teams so all "the same level" they count less simple by virtue of the division they are in, so that too is something that will need to be factored into this increasingly complexly calculated average.
Even after all that work, there will still be arguments. People who disagree with how much weight is given to victories against premier league opposition, how much weight is given to opposition, how much weight is given to injuries, that any weight is given to certain aspects because anyone talking about them are "talking shit". The thing is, some people will say that about the various things that you put more stock in, even though it seems perfectly reasonable, perfectly logical to you.
So, for a simple starting off point on a messageboard discussion, including cup games both for the consistency of comparison to historic data that isn't separated by league and cup, and because the difference in divisions is offset somewhat by team selection is perfectly fine. That you don't agree with the results is not my problem.