[Cricket] England vs Pakistan, 3rd test

[Pavilionaire]

So if someone is a 10/10 keeper but 5/10 batsman, that’s a better selection that say an 8/10 keeper & 8/10 batsman? I understand what you are saying but for me, Buttler gives the side more balance.

The argument for Foakes will never go away really as clearly he IS a better keeper than Buttler, but what Buttler can offer with the bat is good to have, he can come in at 300/4 to take the game away from a team or 55/4 and counter attack to a modicum total.

Let's be honest - Buttler is a shoe-in for this side because our openers have been unreliable since Strauss hung up his gloves. We've effectively been playing with 9-10 men for years, and the likes of Stokes, Woakes, Bairstow and Buttler have been called upon to do the work of two men.

 

[Eeyore]

So if someone is a 10/10 keeper but 5/10 batsman, that’s a better selection that say an 8/10 keeper & 8/10 batsman? I understand what you are saying but for me, Buttler gives the side more balance.

The argument for Foakes will never go away really as clearly he IS a better keeper than Buttler, but what Buttler can offer with the bat is good to have, he can come in at 300/4 to take the game away from a team or 55/4 and counter attack to a modicum total.

Yes. It's also worth noting that Foakes is a better batsman than Buttler and already has a Test ton to his name.

But my main point is this: If you have an inferior keeper who averages an extra ten with the bat, is it preferable given that they will miss stumpings, half chances et al ?

Always said that I'd rather have had a keeper who averaged 25 and caught that sharp chance off Ricky Ponting before he went on to score a ton.

 

[vegster]

So if someone is a 10/10 keeper but 5/10 batsman, that’s a better selection that say an 8/10 keeper & 8/10 batsman? I understand what you are saying but for me, Buttler gives the side more balance.

The argument for Foakes will never go away really as clearly he IS a better keeper than Buttler, but what Buttler can offer with the bat is good to have, he can come in at 300/4 to take the game away from a team or 55/4 and counter attack to a modicum total.

Conversely, dropped catches and missed stumpings can cost you the match. You have eleven players who can hold a bat but only one that gets the gloves. It's only the last 20 years or so that we have this pressure to come up with a destructive Wicketkeeper/Batsman.. Once Mark Boucher, Adam Gilchrist and Brendon McCullum came to the fore the pressure was there for every country to try to find someone who could turn a match batting down the order but, you can't magic up players like that. Better to stick with the best keeper who can bat a bit.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

332-4 close of play
Crawley 171 no Buttler 87 no

wicket stand of 205

 

[The Wizard]

I agree if the keeper is terrible, it can cost you matches but Buttler isn’t a bad keeper?? He had one really bad innings, he did just fine throughout the West Indies series and now he’s picking up some really good innings and important ones as well, won the game for us along with Woakes the other day and a 200 partnership nearly here coming in at 127/4.

 

[jakarta]

Conversely, dropped catches and missed stumpings can cost you the match. You have eleven players who can hold a bat but only one that gets the gloves. It's only the last 20 years or so that we have this pressure to come up with a destructive Wicketkeeper/Batsman.. Once Mark Boucher, Adam Gilchrist and Brendon McCullum came to the fore the pressure was there for every country to try to find someone who could turn a match batting down the order but, you can't magic up players like that. Better to stick with the best keeper who can bat a bit.

Matt Prior was at that level for a few years as well...

 

[vegster]

Matt Prior was at that level for a few years as well...

Yes, I know.. I can't name everyone though! I left MS Dhoni off too!

 

[jakarta]

Weather looks OK for today, bat and bat and bat?

 

[blockhseagull]

Yes. It's also worth noting that Foakes is a better batsman than Buttler and already has a Test ton to his name.

Better keeper yes

Better batsman.... debatable to be fair. Yes he has a test hundred, but lost his place after a run of failures against a poor WI side.

I think we should be lucky we have two decent keeper/batsmen pushing each other hard.

Also when I was watching the last test during the many rain delays, a number of the sky team mentioned how much of a positive influence Buttler is in the dressing room and how tactically astute he is.

 

[Eeyore]

Better keeper yes

Better batsman.... debatable to be fair. Yes he has a test hundred, but lost his place after a run of failures against a poor WI side.

I think we should be lucky we have two decent keeper/batsmen pushing each other hard.

Also when I was watching the last test during the many rain delays, a number of the sky team mentioned how much of a positive influence Buttler is in the dressing room and how tactically astute he is.

Everyone pretty much failed with the bat in that series. Foakes only played two of the games.

It should be of no consequence. A keeper should not be dropped on account of poor run making (See Bob Taylor- 57 Test matches at 16 ). A single sharp chance taken, or a stumping, can be worth 50 runs with the bat. And I've seen too many of those going begging in recent times.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Everyone pretty much failed with the bat in that series. Foakes only played two of the games.

It should be of no consequence. A keeper should not be dropped on account of poor run making. A single sharp chance taken, or a stumping, can be worth 50 runs with the bat. And I've seen too many of those going begging in recent times.

Depends on the batsmen, could be 100 runs if that was your only chance. You just cannot have a slightly better batting average but then drop Steve Smith on 10 in an Ashes test match and he later goes on to make a match winning 200.

I remember Adam Gilchrist having previously denied retirement in the same series against India dropped Laxman in the 4th test and announced his imminent retirement mid test! He simply couldn't countenance dropping such a key player in a test match.

 

[blockhseagull]

Everyone pretty much failed with the bat in that series. Foakes only played two of the games.

It should be of no consequence. A keeper should not be dropped on account of poor run making. A single sharp chance taken, or a stumping, can be worth 50 runs with the bat. And I've seen too many of those going begging in recent times.

I didn’t say it was of consequence to be honest.

I was just questioning Foakes being a better batsman which I don’t believe he is.

The question between runs with the bat and missing a chance is a very good point but very difficult to judge which is more important because of the huge list of variables in cricket. For example you are correct a dropped catch could cost 50 runs, or it could cost 5.

Each player should be judged on what they bring to the team, and the selectors and Root clearly think that Buttler is worth more to them than Foakes currently. He is a decent keeper (even though not the best available) and can score runs.... and as previously mentioned he brings a lot to the team as a whole which is also as important.

 

[Eeyore]

I didn’t say it was of consequence to be honest.

I was just questioning Foakes being a better batsman which I don’t believe he is.

The question between runs with the bat and missing a chance is a very good point but very difficult to judge which is more important because of the huge list of variables in cricket. For example you are correct a dropped catch could cost 50 runs, or it could cost 5.

Each player should be judged on what they bring to the team, and the selectors and Root clearly think that Buttler is worth more to them than Foakes currently. He is a decent keeper (even though not the best available) and can score runs.... and as previously mentioned he brings a lot to the team as a whole which is also as important.

Bob Taylor, for me, was the finest example of how it should work. Kept his place in the team despite continual failures with the bat- because he was such a good keeper. He was dropped a couple of times but they soon returned- he was just too good behind the wickets. Would have played much more had Knott been absent in those earlier years. Incredible keeper.

The Aussies knew it. Look how long Gilchrist was kept out by Healy. A gulf in batting talent.

 

[Sid in the Sharknado]

Over the years England have pretty regularly picked wicketkeepers who weren't regarded as the best in the country based on their batting - people like Ames, Parks and Stewart.

My problem with the Foakes argument is when people talk about him as though he's in that Bob Taylor bracket of being completely useless with the bat, when he has a better record than Buttler.

I could see the argument when Bairstow was in good form and looked able to average over 40 coming in at 7, but not with Buttler. Maybe he'll push on now and become more consistent, but I wish he'd been learning to do that in the championship rather than in the test team.

 

[studio150]

20 minutes of play and the covers are on. Heavy shower

 

[The Wizard]

Stopped raining 10 minutes ago, umpires going to inspect the pitch in 25 minutes at 12.10. Why not go out and inspect it now?

 

[sams dad]

Stopped raining 10 minutes ago, umpires going to inspect the pitch in 25 minutes at 12.10. Why not go out and inspect it now?

This!
A ten minute rain shower means they lose at least an hours play.
Ridiculous.

 

[The Wizard]

Bit confused why they didn’t just take lunch at 12.20 > 13.00 ?

Guess the prawn sandwiches weren’t going to be ready.

 

[keaton]

So if someone is a 10/10 keeper but 5/10 batsman, that’s a better selection that say an 8/10 keeper & 8/10 batsman? I understand what you are saying but for me, Buttler gives the side more balance.

The argument for Foakes will never go away really as clearly he IS a better keeper than Buttler, but what Buttler can offer with the bat is good to have, he can come in at 300/4 to take the game away from a team or 55/4 and counter attack to a modicum total.

But that's not the scores anyone would give Foakes and Buttler. Foakes record for England and in CC is better than Buttler. We're taking 9/10 keeper with 7/10 batting over a 5/10 keeper with 6-7/10 batting

 

[The Wizard]

But that's not the scores anyone would give Foakes and Buttler. Foakes record for England and in CC is better than Buttler. We're taking 9/10 keeper with 7/10 batting over a 5/10 keeper with 6-7/10 batting

5/10 keeper? Absolute rubbish.

I’m convinced Buttler could not drop a catch for a year, stump 47 batsman and score 12 consecutive centuries + rescue a bag of puppies from a river and people would still want Foakes in the side ahead of him.