[Football] England v Germany 5pm . On the front foot from the start .

[Acker79]

For your point to be even close to valid, you need to be able to easily name, say, 5-6 comfortably bigger/more important performances for England since 96, given you think this one has been massively overstated.

To suggest if we go out on Saturday this win means nothing shows you have completely misunderstood the broader picture. There is a sizeable part of me that genuinely doesn’t give a shit if we get any further in this tournament or not. This was comfortably the most important win in my lifetime, hands down.

Anyway, sorry, your list of mythical wins. This should be good.

Well, firstly, I'm not arguing the game isn't important. Just that the BBC reaction to it was over the top.
Secondly, "5-6 comfortably bigger/more important" right, so if I point to 5 or 6 slightly more important than what you and Dan Roan have decided is the most important game in 55 years, my point doesn't get close to valid even though thouse examples would have bumped it down to 7th in the list of most important games, albeit by tiny margins?
Thirdly, why is the number of matches that I consider more important than a last 16 match of the Euros relevant to whether the BBC were over the top. Even if I could name 6 that you agreed were comfortable more important, it has little to do with whether the bbc were over the top and I wouldn't consider it proof that I was right they were over the top.

But really, why bother? You've already gone from 'the most importat match in the last 55 years', to the last 25 years. If I name 6 matches more important will we go down to the last 5 years, to the most important win this week?

But I won't name them, will I, there aren't 6 that are comfortably more important, again, that's not my argument. There are three that I would say were more important, maybe only marginally so...

v Italy 0-0 must not lose game in Italy to guarantee a place in 1998 world cup - having missed out on 94 a second world cup failure would have been pretty bad for English football and the national reputation
v Germany 5-1 in Germany revitalised our 2002 qualifying campaign that had faltered under Keegan
v Sweden in 2018 world cup to get to the semi finals

I'd say there were three equally as important (for which I don't recall such over the top jubilation from our broadcasters)...

v Denmark in the 2002 world cup to get to the quarter finals
v Ecuador in the 2006 world cup to get to the quarter finals
v Colombia in the 2018 world cup to get to the quarter finals

But, I don't care about the 'importance' argument. I think a win can be important, even very important, without needing to be celebrated the way the BBC did. I think our (Brighton's) win against Newport county was an important one - we'd been on a poor run of form in the league (8 matches without a win), mood was low, we'd just had a fight back draw with Wolves and looked like we had shot ourselves in the foot against a team we would have expected to beat given the league difference. That win gave us something, that built on the success of the draw v wolves (an equally important performance) that set us up for the run of games v city, leeds, liverpool, tottenham. But I don't remember us celebrating like we'd just won the cup. Like I said initially, the BBC's post-match coverage put me in mind of Hasenhuttl reaction to Southampton beating Liverpool. A good result, a great shrugging off of a bad historical result on a personal level, even on a national level, but a bit ott. The competition isn't over, there are still more matches to play to give that result meaning.

 

[Badger Boy]

I find it funny how much revision there is of the match based on the outcome. Be honest, who enjoyed the first half?

 

[vagabond]

I find it funny how much revision there is of the match based on the outcome. Be honest, who enjoyed the first half?

Well of course, the result is the most important.

Sure it’d be nice to win 3-0 every game, but I personally have no issues with Southgate playing a pragmatic style. It’s typically how most teams who win these things play.

 

[BN41Albion]

I'd like to retract my comment. I was wrong to say we've not beaten them that often. We've beaten them almost as often as they have beaten us (14 to 15).

Making a big deal about beating Germany in a knockout game (or any big team... if you ignore that big team we also knocked out) is like when we beat West Ham away in our first season in the Premier League and sky sports ran with "Brighton get their first top flight away win in over 30 years!". Yeah, it's hard to win top flight away games when you're not in the top flight.

We've played them in the knockout stages of tournaments 6 times. We've won (now) two of them, and two of them were all square at the end of extra time (a loss is a loss, but I mention this to note how it's not like we're so far behind them that they always beat us with ease). We've also beaten them in group stages of the euros, beaten them in qualifying matches (a quite memorable 5-1 in Germany). Our overall record against them is won 14, drawn 4, and lost 15. It's an inferiority complex to act like it beating them in a competitive match is some how worthy of celebrating as if we've won the whole tournament and labelling it the most important match of our life times.

It was a first knockout round match. It allows us to qualify for the quarter finals of the Euros 2020. If we lose on saturday, last nights win means very little at all. If we win on Saturday, the Uktraine game will be the one that gets us to the Semi finals of a major tournament for only the third time since 1966. Seems to me that (along with the quarter final wins in the 1990 and 2018 world cups) are more important than the game that gets us to the quarter finals of the euros.

It's great that we won. I'm happy we won. I'm sure, on a personal level for Southgate it's a monkey off his back. For people with personal links to Germany (a partner, a job etc,) it means a little more, but come on. Most important match in 55 years is ridiculous hyperbole. The BBC coverage was ott. It's like Pogba's goal celebration (or Pardew's). That sort of coverage should really be saved for getting to or winning a final.

Who pissed on your chips?

I agree it's perhaps not the most important win in 55 years, but...

 

[Acker79]

For your point to be even close to valid, you need to be able to easily name, say, 5-6 comfortably bigger/more important performances for England since 96, given you think this one has been massively overstated.

To suggest if we go out on Saturday this win means nothing shows you have completely misunderstood the broader picture. There is a sizeable part of me that genuinely doesn’t give a shit if we get any further in this tournament or not. This was comfortably the most important win in my lifetime, hands down.

Anyway, sorry, your list of mythical wins. This should be good.

Well, firstly, I'm not arguing the game isn't important. Just that the BBC reaction to it was over the top.

To clarify, having re-read my other response again, the importance was such a small part of my argument I forgot that I included it as an example of the BBC's hype. So clearly it was a part of my argument blush. But it was tangential, it was one of aspect of the BBC's post-match coverage overall, but as I mentioned in my last post, there are other matches I view as equally or (slightly) more important. If everything else was toned down a notch, I wouldn't have noticed or commented on anyone listing it as the most important in our lifetime. I might have put my suggestions forward if there was a discussion, but I wouldn't have raised it.

 

[Acker79]

Who pissed on your chips?

I agree it's perhaps not the most important win in 55 years, but...

Steve did. That barsteward.

 

[Bodian]

Making a big deal about beating Germany in a knockout game (or any big team... if you ignore that big team we also knocked out) is like when we beat West Ham away in our first season in the Premier League and sky sports ran with "Brighton get their first top flight away win in over 30 years!". Yeah, it's hard to win top flight away games when you're not in the top flight.

We've played them in the knockout stages of tournaments 6 times. We've won (now) two of them, and two of them were all square at the end of extra time (a loss is a loss, but I mention this to note how it's not like we're so far behind them that they always beat us with ease). We've also beaten them in group stages of the euros, beaten them in qualifying matches (a quite memorable 5-1 in Germany). Our overall record against them is won 14, drawn 4, and lost 15. It's an inferiority complex to act like it beating them in a competitive match is some how worthy of celebrating as if we've won the whole tournament and labelling it the most important match of our life times.

Yes - but it's more than just the pure stats isn't it. It's the sequence, and the way the results panned out, and arguably in three of the four losses we were the better team.

We won in 1966 (in extra time).
Then we lost in 1970 in extra time after being 2-0 up and having a goal disallowed when at 2-2
We lost in 1990 after going behind to a fairly flukey goal, then penalties.
1996 - we were a goal up and lost on penalties
Then we were thrashed in 2010, but - with Frank Lampard's 'goal' not happening, which would have got us back to 2-2.

All quite painful. And - only one previous game didn't go to extra time, and it's always emotionally harder losing in extra time than in full time somehow.

And also bear in mind that in the 35 major tournaments to date, Germany have done better than us in 29 of them. This time, thanks to last night - they can't.


That's why last night was so important.

 

[Sarisbury Seagull]

I find it funny how much revision there is of the match based on the outcome. Be honest, who enjoyed the first half?

Yep, first 70 minutes actually.

It was an awful game, so little quality, the same amount of decent chances for both sides but we took our chances better and got a bit of luck for a change.

 

[vagabond]

Making a big deal about beating Germany in a knockout game (or any big team... if you ignore that big team we also knocked out) is like when we beat West Ham away in our first season in the Premier League and sky sports ran with "Brighton get their first top flight away win in over 30 years!".

It’s really not though. Maybe you’re not super passionate about England games, more a club man, which is fair enough.

All those matches you mentioned, none are as massive as the result we got last night. Our 5-1 win over Germany, whilst brilliant in its own way, was in a World Cup qualifying group.

In terms of knockout football, I genuinely can’t think of a bigger team we’ve knocked out in my lifetime. Columbia, Sweden, these sort of teams we tend to knockout (or lose to, let’s be honest.. hello Iceland). The closest I can think of is Spain in Euro 96. But that went to penalties, and that was not the Spain we know today.

Maybe it’s an age thing. But historically whenever we play a “big team” in a knockout, we lose. Argentina, Brazil, German y… That’s why I think Lineker, Shearer and Rio were especially ecstatic. Germany have been a death knell for many older fans, Euro 96 and Italia 90.

Results like last night have never happened for England.

 

[Bodian]

It’s really not though. Maybe you’re not super passionate about England games, more a club man, which is fair enough.

All those matches you mentioned, none are as massive as the result we got last night. Our 5-1 win over Germany, whilst brilliant in its own way, was in a World Cup qualifying group.

In terms of knockout football, I genuinely can’t think of a bigger team we’ve knocked out in my lifetime. Columbia, Sweden, these sort of teams we tend to knockout (or lose to, let’s be honest.. hello Iceland). The closest I can think of is Spain in Euro 96. But that went to penalties, and that was not the Spain we know today.

Maybe it’s an age thing. But historically whenever we play a “big team” in a knockout, we lose. Argentina, Brazil, German y… That’s why I think Lineker, Shearer and Rio were especially ecstatic. Germany have been a death knell for many older fans, Euro 96 and Italia 90.

Results like last night have never happened for England.

I fully agree with the sentiment.

But a closer comparison than Spain could actually be Belgium, who were seeded above us in Italia '90 when Platt got that last minute winner.

 

[vagabond]

I fully agree with the sentiment.

But a closer comparison than Spain could actually be Belgium, who were seeded above us in Italia '90 when Platt got that last minute winner.

Agree that is a better example [emoji106] and even that was 30 odd years ago so just reiterates how rare and special it is for England to knock out a big team.

 

[Mr Banana]

Pretty amazing day. I have once again posted nonsense about it.

Have loads of vids and field recording stuff I need to sling up. Reminded me of the Wigan game at Falmer

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Pretty amazing day. I have once again posted nonsense about it.

Have loads of vids and field recording stuff I need to sling up. Reminded me of the Wigan game at Falmer

Good to read, thanks. I enjoy reading your ‘nonsense’.

 

[Klaas]

Has this been posted? Sterling's reaction to giving the ball away and Muller missing.

[tweet]1410356962437574658[/tweet]

 

[sydney]

Has this been posted? Sterling's reaction to giving the ball away and Muller missing.

[tweet]1410356962437574658[/tweet]

that was the turning point ....if Muller scores there christ knows what happens.... have to give pickford credit for closing down the angles and also 2 other excellent stops.

 

[peterward]

ITV just posted a great highlights video with the pitchside cameras, some great extra angles to revel in it just a bit more!