Ed Milliband..... I do believe he's got it.

[User removed 4]

I agree with this. Carve up academia and the more vocational types of study into universities and polys, get rid of nonsense degrees as well. Bring back CSEs and O and A levels.

This I agree with.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Of course immigration is part of the issue, it has given even legal employers a huge pool of cheap labour which has effectively undercut the native british workforce, not to mention the huge numbers of illegals and legals who are willing to work for low rates in the black economy.

I am not sure what you mean by undercutting the native. If the minimum wage was enforced then all staff would cost the same. But a larger pool would increase competition and lead to better quality of staff hire. Immigration cuts both ways; as a consumer I want to benefit from companies being able to employ who they want to make their products i.e. not be restricted to just a British employment market.

As an aside, personally I'd actually increase the minimum wage.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Don't agree with much of your general sentiment

Few people do

As bushy posted earlier in the thread the only way out of this mire is to be more competitive as a nation and one key foundation for this is an efficient, modern and industry tailored education system at all levels. This does not mean throw money at the system, we tried that under Blair and it is not the answer.

It's not just about competitive though. We also need to provide quality at all levels and invest in our future. Educate and train people and give them a real job and real options, trades and structures and career paths. Most new jobs we see announced in the press these days are in the local paper and relate to the opening of a supermarket or a call centre. Most of what we need will come from manufacturing though. I want us to biuld boats, make decent cars, heavy capital goods. I want us to play dirty when it comes to contracts so we can build our own trains instead of the French doing it for us. Instead we moan about playing by the rules being the British way as we lay off skilled workers. f*** that. And above all give people pride in their work and their job.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I'd also take education out of the hands of politicians. We do not need constant changes to the structure of education. It's a waste of time and money, literally.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

This does not mean throw money at the system, we tried that under Blair and it is not the answer.

We do need to invest though. Government were recently telling business types to get weaving but then the government should match this call with investment. If money is not available then tax breaks for new businesses or specefic sectors. Receiving no tax on an employed person is surely better than paying out unemployment benefit? There have been some very specific and very successful targeted tax breaks over the past few years. Why not learn from this?

 

[Questions]

I love Lokki 7's parable.

I remember this one concerning the Tory years of the 80's.


'Once upon a time there was a ****! And she ran the country.'

 

[vegster]

Few people do



It's not just about competitive though. We also need to provide quality at all levels and invest in our future. Educate and train people and give them a real job and real options, trades and structures and career paths. Most new jobs we see announced in the press these days are in the local paper and relate to the opening of a supermarket or a call centre. Most of what we need will come from manufacturing though. I want us to biuld boats, make decent cars, heavy capital goods. I want us to play dirty when it comes to contracts so we can build our own trains instead of the French doing it for us. Instead we moan about playing by the rules being the British way as we lay off skilled workers. f*** that. And above all give people pride in their work and their job.

Indeed, this is our problem, too many jobs are minimum wage with little hope of progression.
Yes, people can get a good job if highly educated and able to afford the fees and hard work but for many people the sum total of their hopes is pinned on a job making coffee at Costa or similar. A whole generation is growing up that cannot afford to buy their own home and will never be able to set money aside for retirement. These are the people that will consigned to a life on benefits and/or crime.
In my youth there were factories where you could earn a reasonable wage and get promotion and overtime if you wanted to work harder and earn more. Nowdays these factories do not exist and overtime rates are at " Time " or time and a third. Not much incentive to work overtime if you are on £6.19 an hour before tax and get £18.57 for 3 hours extra work.

Hope is almost non-existent on too many levels. Kids grow up in families where no member works because there are no reasonable paying jobs. How do we persuade kids to try hard at school when the same future awaits them ?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Indeed, this is our problem, too many jobs are minimum wage with little hope of progression.
Yes, people can get a good job if highly educated and able to afford the fees and hard work but for many people the sum total of their hopes is pinned on a job making coffee at Costa or similar. A whole generation is growing up that cannot afford to buy their own home and will never be able to set money aside for retirement. These are the people that will consigned to a life on benefits and/or crime.
In my youth there were factories where you could earn a reasonable wage and get promotion and overtime if you wanted to work harder and earn more. Nowdays these factories do not exist and overtime rates are at " Time " or time and a third. Not much incentive to work overtime if you are on £6.19 an hour before tax and get £18.57 for 3 hours extra work.

Hope is almost non-existent on too many levels. Kids grow up in families where no member works because there are no reasonable paying jobs. How do we persuade kids to try hard at school when the same future awaits them ?

True. I am from Newhaven and the port and factories used to provide a variety of reasonably well paid work with some sort of progression and also pride because you're making stuff. I used to work at Parker Pen when I was 17 and did a stint at Bevan Funnell for a school work placement. Whilst I used to marvel at the Bevan Funnell furniture it was too dusty for me but Parker Pen was great; in fact I still have a Parker Pen from around that time which is engraved with my name, although they spelt my name incorrectly.

 

[beorhthelm]

A whole generation is growing up that cannot afford to buy their own home and will never be able to set money aside for retirement.

stop it. its not a whole generation, its a small minority who cant do something right now. talk about it affecting a generation when its been the case in 10 or 15 years time. dont you remember the early 90's? a few years of struggling didnt wipe out that generation of school leavers and youth did it? most are home owners with their kids leaving school...

a couple of generations ago most couldnt own their own home - how far we have come that this is considered, even expected, to be the norm. few saved for their retirement then and too few still do save enough, but when policy makers (of all colours) point out this needs to change, there's uproar at the propect of being made to save or having to work a couple more years.

those factory jobs have gone because a combination of a) people didnt want to work in dirty jobs b) priced themselves out of work c) as consumers the same people wanted cheaper goods than can be produced d) automation. the only people whose hope is pinned to Costa are the same as those in generations gone by. most working in those sorts of places will move on in time, same as they always have. a few will remain because they like it (no stress) or because frankly thats what they are suited to. stop trying to paint a picture of some perfect labour market that has never and could never exist, it only serves to give people false hopes.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

We do need to invest though. Government were recently telling business types to get weaving but then the government should match this call with investment. If money is not available then tax breaks for new businesses or specefic sectors. Receiving no tax on an employed person is surely better than paying out unemployment benefit? There have been some very specific and very successful targeted tax breaks over the past few years. Why not learn from this?

The only way I can see this country recovering is if this government had a proper plan to try and get manufacturing back on it's feat. Buy these companies new machinery, match this by getting our young people on apprenticeship schemes with these companies as part of the deal, do something FFS, and stop wasting money on foreign aid, payments to Europe, and all the other rubbish where billions have been wasted.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

stop it. its not a whole generation, its a small minority who cant do something right now. talk about it affecting a generation when its been the case in 10 or 15 years time. dont you remember the early 90's? a few years of struggle didnt wipe out that generation of school leavers did it? a couple of generations ago most couldnt own their own home - how far we have come that this is considered the norm. few saved for their retirement and too few still do save enough, but when policy makers (of all colours) point out this needs to change, there's uproar at the propect of being made to save or having to work a couple more years. those factory jobs have gone because a combination of a) people didnt want to work in dirty jobs b) priced themselves out of work c) as consumers the same people wanted cheaper goods than can be produced d) automation. the only people whose hope is pinned to Costa are the same as those in generations gone by. most working in those sorts of places will move on in time, same as they aways have. a few will remain because they like it (no stress) or because frankly thats what they are suited to. stop trying to paint a picture of some perfect labour market that has never and could never exist, it only serves to give people false hopes.

Total rubbish. Germany has 'dirty' jobs, they pay good wages (I have also been reading about the spectacular Finnish ship building industry which is unpinned by high labour costs), Germany and Finland make products where there is strong price competition and automation has affected both countries. Why have German and Finnish factory jobs not only survived but flourished?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

The only way I can see this country recovering is if this government had a proper plan to try and get manufacturing back on it's feat. Buy these companies new machinery, match this by getting our young people on apprenticeship schemes with these companies as part of the deal, do something FFS

I'm with you.

 

[User removed 4]

The only way I can see this country recovering is if this government had a proper plan to try and get manufacturing back on it's feat. Buy these companies new machinery, match this by getting our young people on apprenticeship schemes with these companies as part of the deal, do something FFS, and stop wasting money on foreign aid, payments to Europe, and all the other rubbish where billions have been wasted.

Agreed, but they must be proper CRAFT apprenticeships, not the ones being trumpeted in the standard this week by the likes of pret a manger , where youngsters will be trained in the art of "backroom food preparation" and after 6 weeks will be offere a full time job, thats not a f***ing apprenticeship in anyones book.

 

[vegster]

stop it. its not a whole generation, its a small minority who cant do something right now. talk about it affecting a generation when its been the case in 10 or 15 years time. dont you remember the early 90's? a few years of struggling didnt wipe out that generation of school leavers and youth did it? most are home owners with their kids leaving school...

a couple of generations ago most couldnt own their own home - how far we have come that this is considered, even expected, to be the norm. few saved for their retirement then and too few still do save enough, but when policy makers (of all colours) point out this needs to change, there's uproar at the propect of being made to save or having to work a couple more years.

those factory jobs have gone because a combination of a) people didnt want to work in dirty jobs b) priced themselves out of work c) as consumers the same people wanted cheaper goods than can be produced d) automation. the only people whose hope is pinned to Costa are the same as those in generations gone by. most working in those sorts of places will move on in time, same as they always have. a few will remain because they like it (no stress) or because frankly thats what they are suited to. stop trying to paint a picture of some perfect labour market that has never and could never exist, it only serves to give people false hopes.

So you agree then, we are F***** then after all.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

Agreed, but they must be proper CRAFT apprenticeships, not the ones being trumpeted in the standard this week by the likes of pret a manger , where youngsters will be trained in the art of "backroom food preparation" and after 6 weeks will be offere a full time job, thats not a f***ing apprenticeship in anyones book.

They would be proper 5 year apprenticeship schemes. I don't know if City & Guilds still exists, but this is what is needed. It pisses me off that every bit of plastic is now coming from China. Its something we should do, its something we can do. It just needs this government to stop trumpeting service industry jobs all the times, and look at the bigger picture.

The problem is none of the government have a clue about manufacturing, they probably don't even know what a bloody screwdriver looks like.

 

[User removed 4]

Total rubbish. Germany has 'dirty' jobs, they pay good wages (I have also been reading about the spectacular Finnish ship building industry which is unpinned by high labour costs), Germany and Finland make products where there is strong price competition and automation has affected both countries. Why have German and Finnish factory jobs not only survived but flourished?

Because the national psyche is different ?? There needs to be root and branch reform from both workeres and management in this country in attitudes to work and the like.

 

[Lokki 7]

Total rubbish. Germany has 'dirty' jobs, they pay good wages (I have also been reading about the spectacular Finnish ship building industry which is unpinned by high labour costs), Germany and Finland make products where there is strong price competition and automation has affected both countries. Why have German and Finnish factory jobs not only survived but flourished?

In the case of Finland that model could not be replicated here as UK voters would never accept the tax burden that Finnish workers and firms do. But I agree, we need to try and build up the engineering base we once enjoyed in this country. Companies like McLaren are shining examples of what can and should be done here. High specification world leading products produced domestically in clean efficient environments that breed pride in the product at all levels of the workforce. Germany have been doing it for decades and it's about time we caught up.

 

[User removed 4]

In the case of Finland that model could not be replicated here as UK voters would never accept the tax burden that Finnish workers and firms do. But I agree, we need to try and build up the engineering base we once enjoyed in this country. Companies like McLaren are shining examples of what can and should be done here. High specification world leading products produced domestically in clean efficient environments that breed pride in the product at all levels of the workforce. Germany have been doing it for decades and it's about time we caught up.

Exactly, its already led to f***ing finns coming over here and taking our jobs .

 

[Seagull58]

You may have to explain about Ed Balls' role in the '13 years getting the slide in full flow'.

He was Economic Secretary to the Treasury for 13 months during that time - his only stint in the Treasury while in government.

Balls continued to work closely with Brown on economic mismanagement throughout the period regardless of his official role in spending all the money they didn't have.

 

[Lokki 7]

Exactly, its already led to f***ing finns coming over here and taking our jobs .

True, but at least they are better looking than the previous incumbents.