[Football] Dunk for England??

[Murray 17]

The FA needed a safe pair of hands ...

I'm sure you're right, but that's the reason why we will continue to underachieve. There's even a company offering cashback on TVs, if England progress in the World Cup.

 

[Murray 17]

I think we've seen things move in different circles with club and international management. The most successful International managers of the last decade are Del Bosque and Low, but I don't see the big clubs with all of their riches offering massive contracts to either of them to try and lure them away.

del Bosque (granted a former RM manager) came to the Spain job off the back of a brief and unsuccessful season (not quite the whole season before he sacked) and then did nothing for 2 years before Spain bringing him in. He was hardly the highest profile man around at the time.

Joachim Low came in to the Germany job from a very low profile managerial career. He was hardly knocking around the big clubs in Germany before he showed up at the National team.

Add to that the highly talented Belgium team go for Roberto Martinez. Are the top 6 clubs sniffing around him?

For my money, the jobs of club and international mangers are vastly different, and we are too quick to base one appointment on the success of doing the other one. As an example, I can't see someone like Jose Mourinho being any good as an International Manager, where you have the cards you are dealt in terms of players, and you have to find the best system for them and coach them up. He doesn't do that! he spends vast amounts of money bringing in the players that fit his preferred way of playing, while taking the players he has, giving them a hard time, and a few trips under the best, and seeing if they come back a better player. At International football you can't afford to take those risks with the likes of Rashford and Shaw. That's your top 6 manager for you.

I get the feeling you think Gareth Southgate was a good appointment, and will do well with England! [emoji3]

 

[Easy 10]

I think you are overlooking the fact that our youth teams, ie those that have probably benefited most from St Georges Park are proving very successful at the moment. Clairefontaine was open 10 years before the French won the World Cup. St georges has only been open just five and half years.

True, the youngsters have done brilliantly to win those tournaments. But it remains to be seen whether those successful players at U21 and U17 level get any gametime back at their clubs - that'll be the acid test. The difference between England and France is that our top league is so awash with money that all the clubs, even the smaller ones, can simply go and buy the finished article, usually from abroad (and BHA are as guilty as any when it comes to this practice nowadays). The talent is coming through, its just whether they'll ever be given a chance.

 

[Gritt23]

I get the feeling you think Gareth Southgate was a good appointment, and will do well with England! [emoji3]

No, I don't know yet. All I'm saying is that we shouldn't throw him under the bus because of his record at Boro.

 

[Easy 10]

I get the feeling you think Gareth Southgate was a good appointment, and will do well with England! [emoji3]

Southgate doesn't particularly inspire much confidence in me, but lets face it, over the last 20-odd years we've tried every other type of manager. The thoughtful tactical innovative but crackpot coach (Hoddle). Then the "passionate" but clueless tubthumper (Keegan), the highly decorated, successful, expensive trendy foreign ones (SGE, Capello), then back to the experienced english coaches (McLaren, Hodgson), then briefly dipped our toe in the water with a belt-and-braces no-nonsense english bloke again (Allardyce), and now we've got an internal appointment, a safely inoffensive blazer with a mediocre track record at club level.

Southgate has already been told his job is safe even if we lose every game next month, so we might as well get used to it.

 

[Iggle Piggle]

Southgate doesn't particularly inspire much confidence in me, but lets face it, over the last 20-odd years we've tried every other type of manager. The thoughtful tactical innovative but crackpot coach (Hoddle). Then the "passionate" but clueless tubthumper (Keegan), the highly decorated, successful, expensive trendy foreign ones (SGE, Capello), then back to the experienced english coaches (McLaren, Hodgson), then briefly dipped our toe in the water with a belt-and-braces no-nonsense english bloke again (Allardyce), and now we've got an internal appointment, a safely inoffensive blazer with a mediocre track record at club level.

Southgate has already been told his job is safe even if we lose every game next month, so we might as well get used to it.

Southgate has got plenty of flaws. The picking of the U21 clique against PL evidence, the backing himself into a corner about not picking players that don't play and then picking players that don't play and a demeanour of the boring bloke in the pub you try to avoid at all costs.

That said, he hasn't done the usual England managers trick of picking the players from the big 6 come what may - Wiltshire the obvious example - who either don't fit into the team or have enough personality flaws to do everyone's head in for the weeks away. The bit that gave me the most confidence was the Dutch performance. We looked solid and we had a plan. Lets face it, most of us thought the team and formation was bonkers beforehand and yet we did a number on an admittedly limited Dutch team. I credited Southgate with more single mindedness and tactical nous than most people gave him after that. I'm pretty sure Harry Kane won't be taking corners this time round.

 

[Easy 10]

Southgate has got plenty of flaws. The picking of the U21 clique against PL evidence, the backing himself into a corner about not picking players that don't play and then picking players that don't play and a demeanour of the boring bloke in the pub you try to avoid at all costs.

That said, he hasn't done the usual England managers trick of picking the players from the big 6 come what may - Wiltshire the obvious example - who either don't fit into the team or have enough personality flaws to do everyone's head in for the weeks away. The bit that gave me the most confidence was the Dutch performance. We looked solid and we had a plan. Lets face it, most of us thought the team and formation was bonkers beforehand and yet we did a number on an admittedly limited Dutch team. I credited Southgate with more single mindedness and tactical nous than most people gave him after that. I'm pretty sure Harry Kane won't be taking corners this time round.

You make some good points, and much like you, I'm not totally cold on the Palace fishlips. He seems to have a plan with his 3 CB's, and he's sticking to it, not just blowing in the wind or cowtowing to media-driven selections such as Smalling and Wilshire. He's also resisted taking any crocks. He's a rather uninspiring figure, you can't imagine him doing a rousing Churchillian speech when we're 3-1 down at half time to Panama. And a Southgate hairdryer is probably akin to being savaged by a dead sheep, but with more spit. But perhaps in his own quietly understated way he's getting his ideas across and connecting with the players.

Here's hoping.

 

[Weststander]

I've been impressed by Southgate's reign so far.

Not his fault at all, but I think we'll ultimately come unstuck this summer by a lack of gifted CM 'general'. Gazza was the last, Scholes was good. Our centre midfielders are good players who hold their own in the CL, but they're not of the Gazza, Pirlo, Modric class, who ran/run games instinctively.

 

[Easy 10]

I've been impressed by Southgate's reign so far.

Not his fault at all, but I think we'll ultimately come unstuck this summer by a lack of gifted CM 'general'. Gazza was the last, Scholes was good. Our centre midfielders are good players who hold their own in the CL, but they're not of the Gazza, Pirlo, Modric class, who ran/run games instinctively.

Agreed. That is the most glaring miss in this squad, aside from a truly domineering CB, a world class GK, and a proper captain. OK, so there are some gaps. That piece of creativity in midfield is the big miss though, someone with that extra vision, and the technique to use it and orchestrate, dictate. There's no point taking along a Lallana or a Wilshire and attempting to build a team around them, because the high likelihood is...they just ain't going to be around to build a team around.

I think Southgate accepts this, so he's just working with what he's got. And its not unheard of for some pretty ordinary teams to become more than the sum of their parts and go deep, just by being belligerent, organised, and difficult to beat. Think the Danes, the Greeks in years gone by (albeit in the Euros). Uruguay, Ghana, Portugal, Italy have all reached latter stages without being vintage. Yes some of them have individuals who can swing a game, but if our forward line starts firing, then so do we.

We will almost certainly come unstuck by the QF stage if we make it there, but I do genuinely believe we have every chance of getting there. More often than not, teams that go deep "grow" into the tournament, so there could well be some early stinkers, but if we muddle through then lets see. Then, we're just going to need them to pull out a massive performance, take our chances when they come along, and ride some chunky luck.

Feel free to bounce though, when we're homeward bound after 2 weeks.

 

[lancyclaret]

....."Incidentally, I see nothing wrong with an international set up having a unified approach. The French before 98, and the Germans continuously, show that it can be successful. It has been achieved to varying degrees in rugby and cricket in England. However, it can't be successful if a country's FA does not prioritise the national team. Our FA has always shown itself to be supine and money hungry and will continue to put the whims of club owners first. Once Ashley has sold Newcastle, Brighton, Burnley, Huddersfield & Tottenham will be the only four English owned clubs in the Premier League. Less than half of the Championship is also English owned. There will be no move to start prioritising club over country in England.

Even ultra-cautious Burnley majority shareholder Mike Garlick is said to be "warming to the idea" of outside investment (sale at right price?) from China or US. He says he has rebuffed a number of approaches but who knows if the right offer comes in?

This was before Europe qualification boosted the club's profile.

 

[Stato]

Southgate is a blazer who wouldn't be considered for a job at any club in the top divisions of Europe. He is just continuing the England way of picking anyone in a top six squad and making up the space with players who have been in the England set up since their seventh birthday.

Any successful manager would pick a way of playing and choose players who can follow this philosophy, but he, like manager after manager just picks whoever the press say are best and tries to force them all into one team. It never works and it won't work again. McLaren 2.0 will soon be out on his backside and the FA will be swinging back to a big name foreign manager and massively overpaying him. I bet they've already got Arsene's number just in case. He would also ignore Dunk and Ben Mee despite the fact that they may be the nearest he could currently get to the Adams and Keown partnership that gave him virtually the only successful defence he had in two decades.

Whilst still thinking that Dunky would have been the best cover Southgate could have for the three centre backs currently starting, I had to go back to this post and eat a bit of humble pie.

However this turns out from here on in, it has been obvious that I was wrong in my statement about Southgate's approach. He and his team have obviously given careful thought to the system that would best suit the players he has available and he has kept things simple and allowed the team to play to their strengths. I've been particularly impressed with the fact that, other than a tired five minutes at the end of the Columbia game, we don't sit deep and give up possession when we have a lead. This has long been an Achilles heel of England's. I underestimated Southgate. He seems to have paid close attention to what worked and what didn't at tournaments where he was a player. Win or lose on Wednesday, he's done very well. (He's still Palace though.)

 

[Silverhatch]

Dunk is by far a better back up than Jones who is tainted by England pre Southgate

 

[Weststander]

Dunk is by far a better back up than Jones who is tainted by England pre Southgate

Dunk is quute possibly a better CB than Jones, who's game has been increasingly chaotic, relying on pace to recover from his awful initial decision making.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I can't really say Dunk absolutely should be in the squad, but he should have been properly considered by now. Southgate is all over the place - since taking charge he's called up bang average Alfie Mawson but ignored Dunk. Jones and Cahill can be shit all day long and are nailed on, but Jermaine Lascelles is overlooked every single squad meet. And how do Lewis Cook and Tarkowski even get considered? Two incredibly ordinary players there IMO (although obviously I have only seen them a few times on telly)

Oh well. The truth is that John Stones is probably the only defender anywhere near the required level anyway, but that shouldn't preclude Southgate being a bit more bold with his other selections. Instead, he's going to end up playing a predictable XI full of the most ordinary players the big six clubs can field, we will limp into the quarter finals before being absolutely trounced, and then Southgate will triumphantly tell the media that this is progress.

Meh.

Looks like Southgate took note of almost all your comments. None of your dead men have made it, and Stones has been great. The only anomaly is Dunk - and long may it be that way - keep him keen.....and ours

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Dunk is by far a better back up than Jones who is tainted by England pre Southgate

Also, he's not very good. And he won't feature....