[Football] Dunk for England??

[Megazone]

Probably not as a centre back in a world cup final.

You reckon England will makes the final?

 

[Lurchy]

I very much disagree. I would say that Sakho is better and that's just for starters.

I'll look forward to your future appearance on Live At The Apollo.

 

[Simster]

I can't really say Dunk absolutely should be in the squad, but he should have been properly considered by now. Southgate is all over the place - since taking charge he's called up bang average Alfie Mawson but ignored Dunk. Jones and Cahill can be shit all day long and are nailed on, but Jermaine Lascelles is overlooked every single squad meet. And how do Lewis Cook and Tarkowski even get considered? Two incredibly ordinary players there IMO (although obviously I have only seen them a few times on telly)

Oh well. The truth is that John Stones is probably the only defender anywhere near the required level anyway, but that shouldn't preclude Southgate being a bit more bold with his other selections. Instead, he's going to end up playing a predictable XI full of the most ordinary players the big six clubs can field, we will limp into the quarter finals before being absolutely trounced, and then Southgate will triumphantly tell the media that this is progress.

Meh.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

At least we can say, after every England defending calamity at the World Cup, that 'Dunk should have been there'.


A wonderful stick to beat Southgate with.

 

[Murray 17]

Southgate is a blazer who wouldn't be considered for a job at any club in the top divisions of Europe.

Quite.

Southgate's win rate at Middlesbrough (his only club job) was 29.8%. This is low, much lower even than Pardew!

No other nation would chose a manager with such a poor record, which is why England will struggle on the world stage for years to come.

 

[Gritt23]

Quite.

Southgate's win rate at Middlesbrough (his only club job) was 29.8%. This is low, much lower even than Pardew!

No other nation would chose a manager with such a poor record, which is why England will struggle on the world stage for years to come.

I think you need to get past that record. It was NINE YEARS ago, that he was at Middlesbrough. Do you just dismiss the possibility that someone can improve at their job over time?

 

[Murray 17]

I think you need to get past that record. It was NINE YEARS ago, that he was at Middlesbrough. Do you just dismiss the possibility that someone can improve at their job over time?

I take your point, but nothing about Southgate makes me think he's a good manager. Yes, we've qualified with a good record, but we usually do.

If he can get us to the quarter-finals or further, with a very mediocre squad, I'll reconsider, but I just can't see it.

As per the original quote, none of the top 6 clubs in England would consider him as management material.

 

[FatSuperman]

I take your point, but nothing about Southgate makes me think he's a good manager. Yes, we've qualified with a good record, but we usually do.

Very true. We usually qualify with one of the best records of all teams. It's ridiculous how shite we then do in the tournament proper.

 

[Gritt23]

..... none of the top 6 clubs in England would consider him as management material.

I think we've seen things move in different circles with club and international management. The most successful International managers of the last decade are Del Bosque and Low, but I don't see the big clubs with all of their riches offering massive contracts to either of them to try and lure them away.

del Bosque (granted a former RM manager) came to the Spain job off the back of a brief and unsuccessful season (not quite the whole season before he sacked) and then did nothing for 2 years before Spain bringing him in. He was hardly the highest profile man around at the time.

Joachim Low came in to the Germany job from a very low profile managerial career. He was hardly knocking around the big clubs in Germany before he showed up at the National team.

Add to that the highly talented Belgium team go for Roberto Martinez. Are the top 6 clubs sniffing around him?

For my money, the jobs of club and international mangers are vastly different, and we are too quick to base one appointment on the success of doing the other one. As an example, I can't see someone like Jose Mourinho being any good as an International Manager, where you have the cards you are dealt in terms of players, and you have to find the best system for them and coach them up. He doesn't do that! he spends vast amounts of money bringing in the players that fit his preferred way of playing, while taking the players he has, giving them a hard time, and a few trips under the best, and seeing if they come back a better player. At International football you can't afford to take those risks with the likes of Rashford and Shaw. That's your top 6 manager for you.

 

[Stat Brother]

MotD did one of their in game profiles on Murray.
Last man, handful, ball over the top, the usual stuff.

The home game in question had Murray nearly getting on the end of 2 racking passes, and finally scoring (or going blooming close) from the third.
What they failed to mention was all 3 near pinpoint passes came from Dunk 60 yards away.

 

[Bozza]

As per the original quote, none of the top 6 clubs in England would consider him as management material.

None of the top6 clubs in England would consider Chris Hughton as management material.

The FA needed a safe pair of hands after the Allardyce debacle and Southgate was in the right place at the right time. I think it’s just as simple as that.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I think we've seen things move in different circles with club and international management. The most successful International managers of the last decade are Del Bosque and Low, but I don't see the big clubs with all of their riches offering massive contracts to either of them to try and lure them away.

del Bosque (granted a former RM manager) came to the Spain job off the back of a brief and unsuccessful season (not quite the whole season before he sacked) and then did nothing for 2 years before Spain bringing him in. He was hardly the highest profile man around at the time.

Joachim Low came in to the Germany job from a very low profile managerial career. He was hardly knocking around the big clubs in Germany before he showed up at the National team.

Add to that the highly talented Belgium team go for Roberto Martinez. Are the top 6 clubs sniffing around him?

For my money, the jobs of club and international mangers are vastly different, and we are too quick to base one appointment on the success of doing the other one. As an example, I can't see someone like Jose Mourinho being any good as an International Manager, where you have the cards you are dealt in terms of players, and you have to find the best system for them and coach them up. He doesn't do that! he spends vast amounts of money bringing in the players that fit his preferred way of playing, while taking the players he has, giving them a hard time, and a few trips under the best, and seeing if they come back a better player. At International football you can't afford to take those risks with the likes of Rashford and Shaw. That's your top 6 manager for you.

Löw was assistant to Klinsmann for two years before he took full control. And Klinsmann and Low were targeted as their playing philosophy fitted exactly what the DFB wanted when they completely revamped their system after failure. Prior to this he had reasonable managerial success at club level. In short, the DFB saw his potential.

 

[Gritt23]

Löw was assistant to Klinsmann for two years before he took full control. And Klinsmann and Low were targeted as their playing philosophy fitted exactly what the DFB wanted when they completely revamped their system after failure. Prior to this he had reasonable managerial success at club level. In short, the DFB saw his potential.

The comparison I'm picking up on is that with England we seem to always think someone should have "top 6" pedigree. I can't remember Low's "reasonable managerial success at club level" so I'll look it up, in case I missed a Bayer Leverkusen in there somewhere.

1994–1995 FC Frauenfeld
1996–1998 VfB Stuttgart
1998–1999 Fenerbahçe
1999–2000 Karlsruher SC
2000–2001 Adanaspor
2001–2002 Tirol Innsbruck
2003–2004 Austria Wien
2004–2006 Germany (assistant coach)
2006– Germany

Nope. A pretty non-descript club career, and then the National FA took him under their wing, liked what they saw and he progressed up to the top job.

As I say, I don't think national success and club success are linked particularly closely. You can do one, having not had any success at the other, or you can be the highly vaulted club manager and waste the best crop of talent England have had in my lifetime (SGE).

Just my opinion of course.

 

[Stato]

As per the original quote, none of the top 6 clubs in England would consider him as management material.

Just to clarify, if you are talking about my comment. I didn't say that none of the top 6 clubs in England would consider him. I said that no club in any of the top leagues in Europe would consider him. Like Chris Coleman and Steve McLaren, when he is sacked, his international profile may get him a chance at a Championship club, but he may just get kicked upstairs at the FA. As Bozza's post indicates, he is a company man that they turned to when the Allardyce scandal left them in a hole.

Incidentally, I see nothing wrong with an international set up having a unified approach. The French before 98, and the Germans continuously, show that it can be successful. It has been achieved to varying degrees in rugby and cricket in England. However, it can't be successful if a country's FA does not prioritise the national team. Our FA has always shown itself to be supine and money hungry and will continue to put the whims of club owners first. Once Ashley has sold Newcastle, Brighton, Burnley, Huddersfield & Tottenham will be the only four English owned clubs in the Premier League. Less than half of the Championship is also English owned. There will be no move to start prioritising club over country in England.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

The comparison I'm picking up on is that with England we seem to always think someone should have "top 6" pedigree. I can't remember Low's "reasonable managerial success at club level" so I'll look it up, in case I missed a Bayer Leverkusen in there somewhere.

1994–1995 FC Frauenfeld
1996–1998 VfB Stuttgart
1998–1999 Fenerbahçe
1999–2000 Karlsruher SC
2000–2001 Adanaspor
2001–2002 Tirol Innsbruck
2003–2004 Austria Wien
2004–2006 Germany (assistant coach)
2006– Germany

Nope. A pretty non-descript club career, and then the National FA took him under their wing, liked what they saw and he progressed up to the top job.

As I say, I don't think national success and club success are linked particularly closely. You can do one, having not had any success at the other, or you can be the highly vaulted club manager and waste the best crop of talent England have had in my lifetime (SGE).

Just my opinion of course.

You seem to be judging him on the pedigree of club he’s managed and not his managerial ability though?

At Stuttgart he took them to 4th and the cup semi-final. He also took them to the UEFA cup winners final. He then took Fenerbahçe to 3rd. He won the Austrian league with Tirol. He was in charge of Austria Vienna and left them when they were also top of the table to work for DFB. Admittedly he had a lean spell at Karlsruher and again in Turkey but overall his career is characterised by success. I appreciate these are modest clubs but he has always done well. It was also the manner in which he coached which alerted the DFB to him.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Just to clarify, if you are talking about my comment. I didn't say that none of the top 6 clubs in England would consider him. I said that no club in any of the top leagues in Europe would consider him. Like Chris Coleman and Steve McLaren, when he is sacked, his international profile may get him a chance at a Championship club, but he may just get kicked upstairs at the FA. As Bozza's post indicates, he is a company man that they turned to when the Allardyce scandal left them in a hole.

Incidentally, I see nothing wrong with an international set up having a unified approach. The French before 98, and the Germans continuously, show that it can be successful. It has been achieved to varying degrees in rugby and cricket in England. However, it can't be successful if a country's FA does not prioritise the national team. Our FA has always shown itself to be supine and money hungry and will continue to put the whims of club owners first. Once Ashley has sold Newcastle, Brighton, Burnley, Huddersfield & Tottenham will be the only four English owned clubs in the Premier League. Less than half of the Championship is also English owned. There will be no move to start prioritising club over country in England.

Given the English football is a 3-way power struggle between the Prem, EFL and FA, The FA can’t prioritise the national team even if they wanted to. Contrast this to the nation’s you mention, France and Germany, and you’ll see what I mean.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

You reckon England will makes the final?

Harry Kane reckons you can win it.

 

[Mellotron]

Harry Kane reckons you can win it.

No he doesn't. He was set the usual silly press trap and answered in the only realistic way possible. You're far too clever to think he actually thinks we'll win it, or you're being a naughty troll.

 

[drew]

Given the English football is a 3-way power struggle between the Prem, EFL and FA, The FA can’t prioritise the national team even if they wanted to. Contrast this to the nation’s you mention, France and Germany, and you’ll see what I mean.

I think you are overlooking the fact that our youth teams, ie those that have probably benefited most from St Georges Park are proving very successful at the moment. Clairefontaine was open 10 years before the French won the World Cup. St georges has only been open just five and half years.

With regard to the power struggle I don't think you can include the EFL. They get the crumbs from the other two and, if we're honest, the power is with the Premier League more than the FA.

 

[Murray 17]

Just to clarify, if you are talking about my comment. I didn't say that none of the top 6 clubs in England would consider him. I said that no club in any of the top leagues in Europe would consider him. Like Chris Coleman and Steve McLaren, when he is sacked, his international profile may get him a chance at a Championship club, but he may just get kicked upstairs at the FA. As Bozza's post indicates, he is a company man that they turned to when the Allardyce scandal left them in a hole.

Incidentally, I see nothing wrong with an international set up having a unified approach. The French before 98, and the Germans continuously, show that it can be successful. It has been achieved to varying degrees in rugby and cricket in England. However, it can't be successful if a country's FA does not prioritise the national team. Our FA has always shown itself to be supine and money hungry and will continue to put the whims of club owners first. Once Ashley has sold Newcastle, Brighton, Burnley, Huddersfield & Tottenham will be the only four English owned clubs in the Premier League. Less than half of the Championship is also English owned. There will be no move to start prioritising club over country in England.

Yes, I realised that. As you say, he's Championship level at best.