[Brighton] Crystal Palace Fan Labour Brighton Pavilion MP Candidate

[Triggaaar]

people dont start claims if they're labeled Miss rather than Mrs or Dr. maybe should recognise the problem thats created isn't the gender identity, it's the aggressive enforcement by others.

So your argument then is that you don't think (some of) the claims are just. I'm sure some claims aren't just, but that's a different argument to whether people should have the right to be a man or woman.

I respect people's right to identify as male/female etc, and if I ever misgender someone I think it's highly unlikely they will sue me, and even less likely they'd win.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Ah, so this is the cause of your angst - you are living in fear day to day of accidentally using the wrong pronoun at work and getting in trouble.

If you try and use the correct pronouns, but get it wrong sometimes, I'd hope your employer is understanding that it's easy to make mistakes and that's all it is. If not, then the issue here is really your employer, not trans people. If however you insist on going round telling trans women at work 'I ain't 'aving' it, you're a cock and ball geezer', then you don't really have a problem remembering pronouns, you have a problem fitting in to a free society. You might do better living somewhere like Russia or the Middle East.

I salute your indefatigability. Woody is the only person I ever put on ignore (once) for merely posting stupid. After a while I relented, recalling his good honest support for Brighton, and general good sense (after all). However, when stupidity underpins nasty prejudice then one has to call out the prejudice, rather than simply shake one's head, sadly.

We heard all the same nonsense when it looked like the prejudicial laws against homosexuality were on the cusp of repeal. Even the military, which considered itself above the law when it came to 'shirtlifters' has recently apologized for ruining the lives of decent patriotic gay military people.

And yet some people still insist on being on the wrong side of history. As others have pointed out, why should it be of any concern of mine how someone else choses to dress, or what appellation they prefer? I have visions now of 1960s gammon running up to someone wearing flared trousers and a frilly shirt and saying 'oy, you're not a proper hippy. Your dad is a bank manager. You're a fake. It shouldn't be allowed'.

Sounds ludicrous, doesn't it? As will the latest gammon backlash, when all the little piggies have slunk back into their box having failed to force the 'weirdos' into wearing a nice pair of slacks and a proper shirt.

 

[pocketseagull]

What’s really baffling is the amount of simpletons that will jump on any bandwagon in the belief it makes them look progressive and liberal.

Thing is, it's only been made to be a bandwagon because of bigotry against the trans community in the past few years.

Someone made a good point the other day, back in 2004, Nadia ( a trans women) won Big Brother and absolutely no-one gave a shit that she was trans, both outside and inside the house. Can you imagine that reaction in 2023?

There's been a campaign of hostility against the trans community, a lot of it in the murdoch press and we've gone backwards. It's pretty shameful really that friends I've known who've been trans for decades have said that now they're being made to feel unwelcome for who they are and it hasn't always been that way.

 

[Hugo Rune]

gender is a social construct. remember, thats the whole basis for how its mutable? because its not fixed like sex is by genes.

I’m not sure I agree with that.

I saw a good piece from Baron Winston (there are many) on trans issues. There is interesting in utero research that suggests the hormones that assign biological sex and perhaps influence gender can be suppressed in the brain whilst being plentiful in the groin. In layman’s terms that means male genitalia and female brain or female genitalia and male brain (and everything in between) depending on what hormones switch on and where.

Our gender is surely not a blank piece of paper that we can colour in a gender of our choice?

I think that cisgender people (women in particular) have to be protected but Trans women should have equal rights in everything. But they are still trans women, not women.

Eddie has stated on a number of occasions that he is not too bothered what people call him, but his preference is ‘she’ and ‘Suzy’. He does not want to be part of the Tory culture war, he wants to help people. However, supporting Palace is not acceptable. Until he is paraded naked around the Amex prior to the Palace game, publicly renouncing them and swearing allegiance to us, kneeling before Tony Bloom and then symbolically deificating on an image of Zaha in the centre circle, I’m out.

If he can change from ‘man’ to ‘trans women’ he can bloody well change from Palace to Brighton.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I have no issue with how others lead their lives,

You are using an almighty number of posts in this thread for someone with no issue.

Just saying.

 

[chip]

You are a man and you feel like a man, so you understand that. You don't understand what it's like for someone who feels the same as you, but who was born as a woman.

I agree with most of what you say, but this is a fallacy. We are all people and our minds don't have absolute reference points. We feel as we do, we have no idea what a "man" or a "woman" feels like to determine our feelings-based identity. There are many people who feel they are in the "wrong" body and that is generally a dysphoria.

I've also seen the phrase "scientific fact", there is no such thing. Science is only the knowledge we have that has not, so far, been shown to be false.

For what it's worth, I think that we are all, to some extent, non-binary sex wise, but that the distributions cluster around two main poles.

Also, this argument seems to centre on the idea that one's self-identity should be recognised over an observed identity. It is a little like the Carribean immigrants children who often had to establish their British identity. What people feel and what people see can be quite different things. It's surprising how many of those track suited youth are actually pleasant people.

 

[Super Steve Earle]

Wow, I reckon I could call Eddie a myriad of things, muppet, arsehole, fishface and none of them would be illegal. What makes you think using the word ‘he’ could get you prosecuted?

Bigger crime to say myriad of Runs for cover.

 

[Hugo Rune]

I've also seen the phrase "scientific fact", there is no such thing. Science is only the knowledge we have that has not, so far, been shown to be false.

Are you a Doctor?

Of course you are not!

I’ll believe what a Doctor says about scientific fact rather than some keyboard warrior on a football forum thanks!

 

[Triggaaar]

I agree with most of what you say, but this is a fallacy.

I disagree with you.

We are all people and our minds don't have absolute reference points. We feel as we do, we have no idea what a "man" or a "woman" feels like to determine our feelings-based identity.

I wasn't suggesting that we have absolute reference points, but we do each have a sense of what it is to be a man or woman, and we can see our we each fit into that. Some people don't feel at ease with the male/female body they've been born with. I don't think wellquick can understand that.

 

[wellquickwoody]

There's an open goal right there

10 out of 10 Sherlock, surprised it took so long.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I’m not sure I agree with that.

I saw a good piece from Baron Winston (there are many) on trans issues. There is interesting in utero research that suggests the hormones that assign biological sex and perhaps influence gender can be suppressed in the brain whilst being plentiful in the groin. In layman’s terms that means male genitalia and female brain or female genitalia and male brain (and everything in between) depending on what hormones switch on and where.

Our gender is surely not a blank piece of paper that we can colour in a gender of our choice?

I think that cisgender people (women in particular) have to be protected but Trans women should have equal rights in everything. But they are still trans women, not women.

Eddie has stated on a number of occasions that he is not too bothered what people call him, but his preference is ‘she’ and ‘Suzy’. He does not want to be part of the Tory culture war, he wants to help people. However, supporting Palace is not acceptable. Until he is paraded naked around the Amex prior to the Palace game, publicly renouncing them and swearing allegiance to us, kneeling before Tony Bloom and then symbolically deificating on an image of Zaha in the centre circle, I’m out.

If he can change from ‘man’ to ‘trans women’ he can bloody well change from Palace to Brighton.

You are right. Gender labeling is a social construct, but gender is an innate characteristic that manifests on a continuous scale. Depending on what you use to measure gender, I'd bet that humans are mostly non-binary. Without going into details, we can all list characteristics that we'd lable 'masculine' and 'feminine', and we all know countless people who have, amongst their phenotype, numerous characteristics that are not 'typical' of their biological sex. Most see themselves as male or female. But some don't, and others would prefer to be free to not. Most have no interest in changing their biological sex (surgery).

Agree with your comments about Izzard, though. You just can't be 'Palace' and an MP in Brighton. It isn't natural.

 

[chip]

Are you a Doctor?

Of course you are not!

I’ll believe what a Doctor says about scientific fact rather than some keyboard warrior on a football forum thanks!

Yes, I am a doctor

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

You are right. Gender labeling is a social construct, but gender is an innate characteristic that manifests on a continuous scale. Depending on what you use to measure gender, I'd bet that humans are mostly non-binary. Without going into details, we can all list characteristics that we'd lable 'masculine' and 'feminine', and we all know countless people who have, amongst their phenotype, numerous characteristics that are not 'typical' of their biological sex. Most see themselves as male or female. But some don't, and others would prefer to be free to not. Most have no interest in changing their biological sex (surgery).

No alone is gender labelling a social construct - it is a social construct of capitalism. Pre-industrial societies were largely absent of any definitions of gender, as they were of homophobia and the modern notion of a nuclear family. The monarchy of Little Vic and the ruling elites she represented, have a lot to answer for.

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

While I can't see the Blairites sanctioning Izzard as a candidate - it would be fun if it happened.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Aside from all your discussions, I wonder if Labour have handed him a duff seat.

Even without Lucas, the Green's have this seat sewn up with 57% of the vote, just 23% voted Labour!

I tend to agree. A decent campaign and Pav will be Greeb again.

 

[WATFORD zero]

You are using an almighty number of posts in this thread for someone with no issue.

Just saying.

It is weird, it's like I struggle to imagine what would fuel the anger and vitriol for posts like these

Interesting argument, no doubt you are like Eddie a full cock and balls geezer.

The cohort you are ignoring are the tits and fanny brigade.

I dare say that lot are “live and let live” up to a point, however if they are queuing up to have a shit or piss like they often do I dare say having to queue up behind a selfish twat with a cock that feels like he wants to sit down for a piss isn’t going to be a vote winner.

Geezers going for a piss or a shit in the ladies means less geezers in the geezers queue…………that’s why geezers like you don’t care and your views don’t mean shit. You should canvas those that are really affected by geezers that want to feel like birds.

Sure, but you’re a geezer ain’t ya?

Your views on the cleanliness of Scandinavian shitters don’t hold any water, let’s get the mum’s views on geezers laying cable in the ladies khazi.

Any one with a cock and balls has very little skin in this game, we are not the ones with the lived experience of having a shelf kit, a tuppence and a monthly bleed.

If those that do genuinely want to share the spaces where they shit and piss with geezers then fine, we can do the shitters first and prisons next.

No doubt they have lovely clean prisons in Scandinavia.

although maybe I could make an educated guess

 

[Live by the sea]

I'd actually agree with you that someone being trans just to rebel and be cool is in fact just a twat. But we're not discussing the people who are just attention seeking twats, we're discussing the genuine people who feel that they are different to the body they have.

Obviously it's not possible to tell who is just attention seeking, and who has genuine issues with their body and identity, so it's best just to let people be. Just like anyone you come across could be a decent person or could be a complete bell-end, and it's better just to assume they're alright until evidence proves otherwise.

I agree with you but although I can’t prove it , my instincts are the majority are attention seekers . The people with serious issues are very much the minority . Just my hunch - others may not agree .

 

[Guinness Boy]

Aside from the inevitable bin fest over Trans rights that this thread has descended into, I'm intrigued as to why Izzard and the Labour Party have chosen this specific seat to fight.

Surely the aim of all current opposition parties is to ensure we don't have a Tory government after the next election. This seat has been held by the Green Party (Caroline Lucas) since 2010 and she has from what I've seen been a fantastic MP both nationally and in representing her constituents.

Surely there are 100s of seats that are currently held by Tories that would be better to target? Ms Izzard's notoriety would make wherever she stands a major talking point.

I guess what I'm saying is, why target this seat, where there is a strong Green Party base, when in many ways the green party are more closely aligned with Labour?

I'm not a local resident but I'm sure many locals feel the same way.

There’s a huge amount of nonsense on this thread, so thanks for a sensible post. Progressive parties really should be thinking about who stands and, indeed, if they stand in certain seats, so as to maximise the Tory losses next time round.

Beyond that, supporting a particular football team is a silly reason to vote a particular way. I wouldn’t vote for Boris or Truss with a gun to my head even if they led the singing in the North Stand. Equally I couldn’t give a shiny shite if Lewis Dunk votes Tory, just so long as he plays well for us. They’re two entirely separate things.

 

[WATFORD zero]

I agree with you but although I can’t prove it , my instincts are the majority are attention seekers . The people with serious issues are very much the minority . Just my hunch - others may not agree .

To be fair it is an opinion and, unlike many others, at least you acknowledge that it has no basis whatsoever in fact or knowledge

Opinion
noun
1.1.
a view or judgement formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.

 

[beorhthelm]

I’m not sure I agree with that.

those are the rules of engagement. research can prove something if you setup suitable criteria, this blurs the biology and the social aspects. could we have a test to see exactly how gendered you are? just mixes gender and sex concepts, it's perfectly accepted a male may act feminine or a female act masculine, while they go through life as man or woman respectivly. its all about identity.