Crewe by-election official thread

[Dandyman]

Thing is though, that on this board, with my mates andwork colleagues - all those that are Labour supporters keep going on about how New Labour aren't real Labour and how Labour ought to get back to what it was set up to do but in the polls and in the elections no-one is voting for them.

Where's Scargill, Dave Nellist and all the other left-wingers? If I were them I'd be mounting a huge whispering campaign to recruit New Labour members and voters. I'd also be sounding out the unions for political support. Really stick the knife into New Labour.

Left-wing "third parties" will only have limited success without significant financial backing. Labour were founded as the voice of the organised working class movement (the Labour Representation Committee) in the form of the trade unions.

The Tories will always be funded by the usual collection of tax exiles and multi-millionaires. unless there is a reform of parliament to allow for some form of PR, social democratic/socialist parties in the UK will always need the backing of trade unions or a similar self-organised collective organisation if they want real electoral success.

 

[bigc]

They keep harping about how good the economy was under Brown, which I believe it was, but no one cares, they want to know why prices and food is going up now. How can they cope in the future.

The Labour Party and whoever, needs to highlight their past successes for their voting group, simplify taxes, reduce tax a little bit (despite what I believe), focus on vote winning ideas.

I really do wonder how much Labour past successes were not actually down to Blair but to Campbell, since he has left, the presentation of the Government has been appalling!!

Problem with Brown is just that, he repeats the same line he has for years. His figures don't mean ANYTHING to people struggling, it has no emotional connection whatsoever.

 

[Gwylan]

I think perhaps after losing battles with Kinnock in the '80s, they lost the desire to fight anymore and have slunk away from political life. I mean, the lost battles must have knocked the shit of them. Perhaps they just don't care anymore.

I guess Ken was the only figure from those left-wingers all that time ago, the others have vanished.

Militant have now renamed themselves The Socialist Party - although they fight a lot of elections as the Socialist Alliance, as they've teamed up with some smaller parties.
They're winning the odd council seat, they're strong around Lewisham for example.

I believe they'll be putting forward a candidate in Brighton Pavilion next time too.

 

[Buzzer]

I think perhaps after losing battles with Kinnock in the '80s, they lost the desire to fight anymore and have slunk away from political life. I mean, the lost battles must have knocked the shit of them. Perhaps they just don't care anymore.

I guess Ken was the only figure from those left-wingers all that time ago, the others have vanished.

Buzzer, you imply there are many NewLabour members to recruit!

Shame if Nellist has lost the stomach for a fight. Didn't just talk the talk but walked it too. Refused to take more in salary than the average worker and refused all other trappings and perks. Jeremy Corbyn is another. These people have the pedigree, experience and clout to really appeal to the left-wing of the Labour party.

Cheers CovGull. I knew he was still around but didn't know where.

 

[Buzzer]

Left-wing "third parties" will only have limited success without significant financial backing. Labour were founded as the voice of the organised working class movement (the Labour Representation Committee) in the form of the trade unions.

The Tories will always be funded by the usual collection of tax exiles and multi-millionaires. unless there is a reform of parliament to allow for some form of PR, social democratic/socialist parties in the UK will always need the backing of trade unions or a similar self-organised collective organisation if they want real electoral success.

Gut feeling from someone who's outside all the union/Labour is that the unions (and a few big ones too) are really pissed off with how New Labour just isn't socialist anymore. Surely, some of the more militant union leaders must offer their members a chance to vote for funding alternative parties more in tune with their aims?

Isn't there a Co-operative party still that's separate from Labour?

 

[bigc]

Militant have now renamed themselves The Socialist Party - although they fight a lot of elections as the Socialist Alliance, as they've teamed up with some smaller parties.
They're winning the odd council seat, they're strong around Lewisham for example.

I believe they'll be putting forward a candidate in Brighton Pavilion next time too.

I thought they have already put a Brighton Pavilion candidate in before, Ian Fyvie

 

[coventrygull]

Shame if Nellist has lost the stomach for a fight. Didn't just talk the talk but walked it too. Refused to take more in salary than the average worker and refused all other trappings and perks. Jeremy Corbyn is another. These people have the pedigree, experience and clout to really appeal to the left-wing of the Labour party.

Cheers CovGull. I knew he was still around but didn't know where.

Nellist is a top bloke in my opinion and thats coming from someone who obviously dosen't agree with all that he believes in. He and the other socialist alliance counsellors here are very hard working and genuine.

 

[Dandyman]

Gut feeling from someone who's outside all the union/Labour is that the unions (and a few big ones too) are really pissed off with how New Labour just isn't socialist anymore. Surely, some of the more militant union leaders must offer their members a chance to vote for funding alternative parties more in tune with their aims?

Isn't there a Co-operative party still that's separate from Labour?

I think a few Labour MPs are "Labour & Co-operative".

I've never been a member of any political party (although I've been in a variety of trade unions). There is some pressure to move political funding to an alternative party but I doubt it would get past the trade union bureaucracy in most cases.

Frankly, I don't have much hope for progressive mainstream national politics in this country for the next few years although I think there may be some positive local activity based on a combination of small parties like Nellist & co in Coventry, the Greens and others and also through community bases organisations.

 

[London Calling]

What total rubbish.

The average wage is around £26,000 a year - the average worker will pay about 25% of that in tax and NI (not paying the higher rate of tax) and say a couple of thousand pounds in council tax and VAT on utilities. To get up to 65%, he or she would have have to spend about £10k on VAT and duty - that's some going; it would mean drinking petrol

I've just done a quick calculation from my own payslip and bills. I estimate that I pay about 38 to 39 percent of my income in tax (I do pay at a higher rate). My biggest three bills, and I suspect most people's, are for mortgage, food and transport (all of which are rated zero for VAT).

A simple moment's thought would have revealed that 65% figure is total rubbish - even someone paying £200k would only pay about 35% of income in tax and NI.

Trying not to be nieve here.

I earn just over 45k.

So 5k of this is at 40% income tax, plus my Nat Ins is 11% = 51% tax on my income?

I then have a Council Tax of £1400, I am the sole earner at the mo. this is equivalent to 3% tax of my income,

thus raising the level to 54% tax on my income. No tax credits for this family despite 3 children.

Plus, VAT, whatever, we have no car, so no direct tax there.

But nevertheless 54% Income tax plus VAT. Not bad considering how crap public services are to our Nordic friends and they are better looking!!

LC

 

[captainmorganrum]

I think this thread is missing the burning issue raised by this by-election.
The tidy Tory wife….she’s a TILF alright!

She's a Tory wife so you'd get all the benefits of be able to shag prostitutes, have affairs, be caught with your manhood up a ladyboy's chuff in a public park etc etc and she would still stay with you. Your whole life could be a string of "moments of madness" and you could still come back to tea on the table and little Tarquin sat diligently in front of his homework.

Plus Tories are posh, posh women are filthy. FACT.

There glad I've been able to inform and educate, I loves a good MASS DEBATE

EDIT: But don't look into his eyes, look around the eyes.....

 

[Gwylan]

Trying not to be nieve here.

I earn just over 45k.

So 5k of this is at 40% income tax, plus my Nat Ins is 11% = 51% tax on my income?

I then have a Council Tax of £1400, I am the sole earner at the mo. this is equivalent to 3% tax of my income,

thus raising the level to 54% tax on my income. No tax credits for this family despite 3 children.

Plus, VAT, whatever, we have no car, so no direct tax there.

But nevertheless 54% Income tax plus VAT. Not bad considering how crap public services are to our Nordic friends and they are better looking!!

LC

You earn about the same as I do. But you're not paying 51% tax and NI on your income - you're only paying 40% on your income above the higher rate threshold, (which is about £29,500). So your tax and NI is about 30%. Look at your payslip, if you're being hit with 51% deductions, your employer is ripping you off.

BTW, why do you not claim family credit? If you're the sole earner and on £45k, you're entitled to it.

 

[Buzzer]

Trying not to be nieve here.

I earn just over 45k.

So 5k of this is at 40% income tax, plus my Nat Ins is 11% = 51% tax on my income?

I then have a Council Tax of £1400, I am the sole earner at the mo. this is equivalent to 3% tax of my income,

thus raising the level to 54% tax on my income. No tax credits for this family despite 3 children.

Plus, VAT, whatever, we have no car, so no direct tax there.

But nevertheless 54% Income tax plus VAT. Not bad considering how crap public services are to our Nordic friends and they are better looking!!

LC

Hi LC: You can check online what you should pay. On a hypothetical £45k p.annum the monthly tax and NI works out at about 29% of your gross pay. Add on top say 1/3 of the remainder that you pay VAT on then it's around 35%

http://payecalculator.inlandrevenue.gov.uk/PAYE0.aspx
http://nicecalculator.inlandrevenue.gov.uk/Class1NICs1.aspx

With council tax and other taxes I'd guess that it would be in total around 40%

PM me if you want to.

 

[London Calling]

Hi LC: You can check online what you should pay. On a hypothetical £45k p.annum the monthly tax and NI works out at about 29% of your gross pay. Add on top say 1/3 of the remainder that you pay VAT on then it's around 35%

http://payecalculator.inlandrevenue.gov.uk/PAYE0.aspx
http://nicecalculator.inlandrevenue.gov.uk/Class1NICs1.aspx

With council tax and other taxes I'd guess that it would be in total around 40%

PM me if you want to.

Cheers Buzz and G,

I know I don't pay that amount of tax! But that's the media our great media can present it.



Thanks for the offer, Buzz I will bear it in mind,

I enjoyed your "plastic" "fight" thread Buzz, you should go out more often.

At the mo, Ms LC is on one year matenity leave, we really believe we should be with other little ones and their development,

but she is in the last 6 months with no pay.

TBHO we did qualify for Tax Credits for a while and what a mess, we were given a minute sum, then told it was too much, we then were given a bit more than told, it was again too much.

We have just given up.

LC

 

[looney]

People who seem to think labour are facing a midterm dip are in denial. Theyve just been in power to long. It will be 12 years at the next election, the tories fluked it under major cos kinnock screwed up and major was refreshing after 10 years of maggie.


The toff stunt in Crewe would have been brushed of or laughed at in 97 when labour did similar with Foxes(I think or ws it a tory stunt?). They are swimming against the tide now and will reallt struggle to highlight their succeses which was what happened to the Major Government after the ERM debacle.

 

[coventrygull]

I Frankly, I don't have much hope for progressive mainstream national politics in this country for the next few years although I think there may be some positive local activity based on a combination of small parties like Nellist & co in Coventry, the Greens and others and also through community bases organisations.

I agree with you dandy. I think local community politics is where the fight back against the lab/con dictatorship is beginning. You have the BNP, Greens, Socialist alliance and even an independent working class association who have a councillor in Oxford IWCA - Independent Working Class Association - national website Interesting times indeed

 

[London Calling]

People who seem to think labour are facing a midterm dip are in denial. Theyve just been in power to long. It will be 12 years at the next election, the tories fluked it under major cos kinnock screwed up and major was refreshing after 10 years of maggie.


The toff stunt in Crewe would have been brushed of or laughed at in 97 when labour did similar with Foxes(I think or ws it a tory stunt?). They are swimming against the tide now and will reallt struggle to highlight their succeses which was what happened to the Major Government after the ERM debacle.

London has just shown, that it didn't care about voting for a candidate with a posh voice.

TBHO,

How Many Labour MP's have a strong working Class accent, doesn't it have more lawyers and barristers than the tory benches.

A stunt at best, pathetic!

 

[London Calling]

I agree with you dandy. I think local community politics is where the fight back against the lab/con dictatorship is beginning. You have the BNP, Greens, Socialist alliance and even an independent working class association who have a councillor in Oxford IWCA - Independent Working Class Association - national website Interesting times indeed

This is really only going to happen with PR, only that way will the "minor" parties get established, until then, apart from a few celebraties such as Galloway, Nellis and is it Sherman in Glasgow, the minnows wwill rarely obtain any power. Despite, the good work and their commitment and possibly the best way forward for our country.

LC

 

[coventrygull]

This is really only going to happen with PR, only that way will the "minor" parties get established, until then, apart from a few celebraties such as Galloway, Nellis and is it Sherman in Glasgow, the minnows wwill rarely obtain any power. Despite, the good work and their commitment and possibly the best way forward for our country.

LC

I don't disagree with you that PR may be the only way forward for the minor parties but the main parties are now becoming very removed from the electorate. People in the end may not bother to vote or will vote for the minor parties.

 

[coventrygull]

Just remembered the scottish guys name Tommy Sheridan. Likes to dabble in a bit of swinging I here. My kind of politician

 

[looney]

The problem with PR lists is how do you weed the stupid out? Take the current Leader of Scottish Labour. At least with constituencies theres always a chance.

Potillo and Hamilton for example and no doubt a Labour Clown or 2 in a couple of years.