Crewe by-election official thread

[bigc]

Don't forget, in the low income and working class areas of London, Ken vote was up, big style. If a normal Labour politician had been Mayor, you would have seen a whopping thrashing in London.

LC

That's why I had a problem of people like Tessa Jowell and Harriet Harman interfering with the campaign and then implying they had better ideas than Ken.

While Ken was a bit tired and off key, he still performed far better than any ideas Jowell or Harman could have had.

 

[Gully]

You will note that the countries with lowest levels of poverty are the great wealth distributors in the north east Europe - the Nordic countries.

The Nordic countries are also those with the highest levels of taxation, as far as I am led to believe, people in some cases pay 50% of their income in tax. This of course has benefits, at a cost, their social service provision is the best in the World. People in the UK are constantly grumbling about the amounts they pay in tax, yet they also want better social care, unfortunately the two go hand in hand and you cannot have one without the other.

 

[steward 433]

The Nordic countries are also those with the highest levels of taxation, as far as I am led to believe, people in some cases pay 50% of their income in tax. This of course has benefits, at a cost, their social service provision is the best in the World. People in the UK are constantly grumbling about the amounts they pay in tax, yet they also want better social care, unfortunately the two go hand in hand and you cannot have one without the other.

My brother lives in Sweden YES the income tax is higher 40% but a much higher allowance before you start paying LOWER VAT hardly any stealth taxes cheaper food cheaper fuel the list goes on.

Overall he is far better off living over there.

House prices outside of the capital you can pick up a new 4 bed 3 reception house with double garage for under £30,000 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[London Calling]

The Nordic countries are also those with the highest levels of taxation, as far as I am led to believe, people in some cases pay 50% of their income in tax. This of course has benefits, at a cost, their social service provision is the best in the World. People in the UK are constantly grumbling about the amounts they pay in tax, yet they also want better social care, unfortunately the two go hand in hand and you cannot have one without the other.

THATS VERY TRUE.

I always like to throw this example into the debate.

The nordic countries generally provide free or very heavily subsidised childcare, that parents have the right to access at work or local to their home.

In the UK you have to pay for it.

Me and Ms LC have to pay £6500 per child per year.

When we had both in childcare £13,000 per annum.

I believe free childcare should bea right, if society really wants women in the workforce and equality in the workforce.


I presently pay a little of 40% tax, I see childcare costs as a tax. taking my tax levels above 50%.

And we still don't get the quality of service that comes with this level of taxation, such as the best NHS in the world, the best education, great clean cities....................................................

 

[steward 433]

THATS VERY TRUE.

I presently pay a little of 40% tax, I see childcare costs as a tax. taking my tax levels above 50%.

ERM VAT, Council tax, Fuel duty tax

try the fact the average british worker pays over 65% in Tax

 

[Gully]

The childcare issue is one that we need to address with a degree of urgency, particularly if as a nation we wan't to encourage women to return to the workplace after having a child, I can think of quite a few women who have given up careers after child birth...that is a loss not just to them but the nation, all were working in professions that could ill afford to lose people of their ability.

We have an ageing population and a falling birthrate, this is a time bomb just waiting to go off, the warnings are there. Taxation will have to rise to provide adequate social care for the increasingly aged population, it won't come cheap.

 

[London Calling]

ERM VAT, Council tax, Fuel duty tax

try the fact the average british worker pays over 65% in Tax

Very true, I meant to say 40% Income Tax, plus 11% NI, well that's 51% Income tax immediately. Nordic levels, then your Council Tax, obligatory for all households.

 

[eastlondonseagull]

The childcare issue is one that we need to address with a degree of urgency, particularly if as a nation we wan't to encourage women to return to the workplace after having a child, I can think of quite a few women who have given up careers after child birth...that is a loss not just to them but the nation, all were working in professions that could ill afford to lose people of their ability.

We have an ageing population and a falling birthrate, this is a time bomb just waiting to go off, the warnings are there. Taxation will have to rise to provide adequate social care for the increasingly aged population, it won't come cheap.

We're worrying about what to do there, ourselves. If Mrs ELS doesn't go back to work in September, we could really struggle. But if she does, and does three days a week, it'll only just pay for childcare, leaving a few quid over to help with food etc costs.

.



.

 

[Buzzer]

Question for LC - do you think LAbour should steer to the left and re-establish itself as a socialist party clearly fighting for the rights of the working (and unemployed) man over everything else?

The trouble is, I don't see any appetite out there for a left-wing alternative. The socialist labour party ought to be gaining votes like nobodies business (Why did they not contest Crewe). The LibDems haven't profited either. I genuinely don't know why people are voting Tory rather than a more left-wing party.

Simster - I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the rich/poor debate. I agree that minimum wage has been a great success (I've always supported the idea). Tax credits is a mess but indicative of Labour's insistence on creating more and more complicated tax and welfare regimes. I believe a simpler system of taxation is possible and could be a vote winner. Abolish NI and roll it into income tax for instance.

It may not appear to us that the poor are getting poorer (I take it we can agree that the rich are getting richer) but apparently those below the breadline is frighteningly huge. They don't vote, as a rule and consequently I think is lower down on the priorities than it should be.

I'm chuckling to myself at the moment at how Labour have right royally screwed up but the way the Tories are being allowed a free ride of having very little to offer except a promise of being different ought to scare the neutral.

 

[bigc]

Question for LC - do you think LAbour should steer to the left and re-establish itself as a socialist party clearly fighting for the rights of the working (and unemployed) man over everything else?

The trouble is, I don't see any appetite out there for a left-wing alternative. The socialist labour party ought to be gaining votes like nobodies business (Why did they not contest Crewe). The LibDems haven't profited either. I genuinely don't know why people are voting Tory rather than a more left-wing party.

LibDem's are useless now, Clegg is a nasty piece of work who just wants to be like Cameron while being unduly smug.

There isn't an appetite for a left-wing alternative, you're right. It's all a rather narrow avenue the parties are contesting and like you say, right now the Tories are succeeding on the basis they can say "we wouldnt lose all those NI numbers" or "mess up an entire tax band".

 

[Gully]

We're worrying about what to do there, ourselves. If Mrs ELS doesn't go back to work in September, we could really struggle. But if she does, and does three days a week, it'll only just pay for childcare, leaving a few quid over to help with food etc costs.

That is what is wrong with the system, it is a rediculous state of affairs where someone would be better off not working and claiming benefits...assuming that they are entitled to some, but that they would almost be worse off by actually working.

I am guessing here, partly based on the experience of friends, that the professions most affected by women taking maternity leave are things like nursing, primary education and the care professions (I know that this sounds like I am being deeply stereotypical but it is based on experience), these are the ones where it is hardest to fill gaps caused by absence.

Maybe it is time for more employers to consider including childcare vouchers as part of their employment package, it would certainly help them to recruit and retain the right staff...also it would go some way to avoid the position Mrs ELS will find herself in of effectively working for nothing.

 

[Gully]

LibDem's are useless now, Clegg is a nasty piece of work who just wants to be like Cameron while being unduly smug.

There isn't an appetite for a left-wing alternative, you're right. It's all a rather narrow avenue the parties are contesting and like you say, right now the Tories are succeeding on the basis they can say "we wouldnt lose all those NI numbers" or "mess up an entire tax band".

It has become a bit like a boxing match, the battle is just being fought over a small piece of territory when it comes to policy, you have two heavyweights slugging it out for supremacy...there is little room to get anyone else into the ring without it becoming too crowded, you even have a red and blue corner!

 

[bigc]

It has become a bit like a boxing match, the battle is just being fought over a small piece of territory when it comes to policy, you have two heavyweights slugging it out for supremacy...there is little room to get anyone else into the ring without it becoming too crowded, you even have a red and blue corner!

But the way they are fighting is weakening them both...obviously far less the Tories...but their time will come!

Someone needs to offer something INSPIRING!

 

[Buzzer]

Thing is though, that on this board, with my mates andwork colleagues - all those that are Labour supporters keep going on about how New Labour aren't real Labour and how Labour ought to get back to what it was set up to do but in the polls and in the elections no-one is voting for the other left-wing parties.

Where's Scargill, Dave Nellist and all the other left-wingers? If I were them I'd be mounting a huge whispering campaign to recruit New Labour members and voters. I'd also be sounding out the unions for political support. Really stick the knife into New Labour.

EDIT - and where are the Greens? They've already got the moral high geound and ability to appeal to the whole political spectrum.

Not that I'm complaining about everyone becoming a Tory all of a sudden, you understand.

 

[coventrygull]

But the way they are fighting is weakening them both...obviously far less the Tories...but their time will come!

Someone needs to offer something INSPIRING!

I wonder which party will do that?

 

[London Calling]

Question for LC - do you think LAbour should steer to the left and re-establish itself as a socialist party clearly fighting for the rights of the working (and unemployed) man over everything else?

The trouble is, I don't see any appetite out there for a left-wing alternative. The socialist labour party ought to be gaining votes like nobodies business (Why did they not contest Crewe). The LibDems haven't profited either. I genuinely don't know why people are voting Tory rather than a more left-wing party.

Simster - I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the rich/poor debate. I agree that minimum wage has been a great success (I've always supported the idea). Tax credits is a mess but indicative of Labour's insistence on creating more and more complicated tax and welfare regimes. I believe a simpler system of taxation is possible and could be a vote winner. Abolish NI and roll it into income tax for instance.

It may not appear to us that the poor are getting poorer (I take it we can agree that the rich are getting richer) but apparently those below the breadline is frighteningly huge. They don't vote, as a rule and consequently I think is lower down on the priorities than it should be.

I'm chuckling to myself at the moment at how Labour have right royally screwed up but the way the Tories are being allowed a free ride of having very little to offer except a promise of being different ought to scare the neutral.

I think the Labour Party has missed there chance of going more left wing.

From picking up a couple of Blair and Brown's earlier speeches, views. I believed there were aiming for two solid terms in office, to reestablish a social model of society. Then during the next term, go for proportional representation, on the belief that the majority of the Country would always go "left of centre".

I believe that the route of simplyfying taxation, is the best way forward. The concern for the Labour party is that if they handle it badly - which at the mo, they will - the media will have a field day!!

Tax Credits have helped to reinforce the public perception that the Government is incompetant and mismanages everything.

TBO Buzzer, I can't believe that this Government is so incompetant, that they fail to highlight their achievements:

such as subsidising some child care,
the 20 p tax,

public transport improvements,
taken school investment to 5.5% of GDP for the first time?

Free bus travel for pensioners.

They keep harping about how good the economy was under Brown, which I believe it was, but no one cares, they want to know why prices and food is going up now. How can they cope in the future.

The Labour Party and whoever, needs to highlight their past successes for their voting group, simplify taxes, reduce tax a little bit (despite what I believe), focus on vote winning ideas.

I really do wonder how much Labour past successes were not actually down to Blair but to Campbell, since he has left, the presentation of the Government has been appalling!!

 

[Gwylan]

try the fact the average british worker pays over 65% in Tax

What total rubbish.

The average wage is around £26,000 a year - the average worker will pay about 25% of that in tax and NI (not paying the higher rate of tax) and say a couple of thousand pounds in council tax and VAT on utilities. To get up to 65%, he or she would have have to spend about £10k on VAT and duty - that's some going; it would mean drinking petrol

I've just done a quick calculation from my own payslip and bills. I estimate that I pay about 38 to 39 percent of my income in tax (I do pay at a higher rate). My biggest three bills, and I suspect most people's, are for mortgage, food and transport (all of which are rated zero for VAT).

A simple moment's thought would have revealed that 65% figure is total rubbish - even someone paying £200k would only pay about 35% of income in tax and NI.

 

[coventrygull]

Thing is though, that on this board, with my mates andwork colleagues - all those that are Labour supporters keep going on about how New Labour aren't real Labour and how Labour ought to get back to what it was set up to do but in the polls and in the elections no-one is voting for the other left-wing parties.

Where's Scargill, Dave Nellist and all the other left-wingers? If I were them I'd be mounting a huge whispering campaign to recruit New Labour members and voters. I'd also be sounding out the unions for political support. Really stick the knife into New Labour.

Dave Nellist is a Socialist alliance councillor in Coventry

http://www.socialistalliance.org.

they are trying to build an alternative

 

[bigc]

Thing is though, that on this board, with my mates andwork colleagues - all those that are Labour supporters keep going on about how New Labour aren't real Labour and how Labour ought to get back to what it was set up to do but in the polls and in the elections no-one is voting for the other left-wing parties.

Where's Scargill, Dave Nellist and all the other left-wingers? If I were them I'd be mounting a huge whispering campaign to recruit New Labour members and voters. I'd also be sounding out the unions for political support. Really stick the knife into New Labour.

I think perhaps after losing battles with Kinnock in the '80s, they lost the desire to fight anymore and have slunk away from political life. I mean, the lost battles must have knocked the shit of them. Perhaps they just don't care anymore.

I guess Ken was the only figure from those left-wingers all that time ago, the others have vanished.

Buzzer, you imply there are many NewLabour members to recruit!

 

[Buzzer]

What total rubbish.

The average wage is around £26,000 a year - the average worker will pay about 25% of that in tax and NI (not paying the higher rate of tax) and say a couple of thousand pounds in council tax and VAT on utilities. To get up to 65%, he or she would have have to spend about £10k on VAT and duty - that's some going; it would mean drinking petrol

I've just done a quick calculation from my own payslip and bills. I estimate that I pay about 38 to 39 percent of my income in tax (I do pay at a higher rate). My biggest three bills, and I suspect most people's, are for mortgage, food and transport (all of which are rated zero for VAT).

A simple moment's thought would have revealed that 65% figure is total rubbish - even someone paying £200k would only pay about 35% of income in tax and NI.

You're not wrong. I'd make a guess at about 35% in direct and indirect taxes for someone on £26,000 but I guess that for a family you would also get tax credits and other rebates at that level of salary.