Could UKIP win the General Election ?

[Hastings gull]

What a lot of rubbish. Again. You have perfected the art of waffle.
You keep the name. Makes you look 'smart'
Show me where I derailed this thread. Do you think it may have been a response to a prat? ie YOU ?
YOU decided to bring my name into the thread most recently, by hurling an insult at me, to which I responded. Feel free to check. (#228)

...and I LOVE hearing UKIP supporters 'debate'. They tend to show themselves up without any help,

I am not interested in the insults and these should be avoided at all costs. I am also not a UKIP supporter, particularly, but with all respect, sir, having watched your responses for several days, you are probably the last one, or very close to it, on this debate, who should be lecturing others on how they show themselves up. Your opinions are indeed important if we believe that a forum should involve an exchange of views, but you do have this tendency to let yourself down with insults and generalisations.

 

[Hastings gull]

Fair enough, your call.

My point is about the defence of the EU, not the multiple areas of credible attack, of which the EU's lack of democracy and accountability to the electorate in the UK and wider EU is one one of the most egregious areas. That said, keeping the proles ignorant of what is really going on is just standard political m.o. since the dawn of time........

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ro-federalists-financed-by-US-spy-chiefs.html

Indeed, the recently anointed Head of the Commission is quoted as follows:

On British calls for a referendum over Lisbon Treaty
“Of course there will be transfers of sovereignty. But would I be intelligent to draw the attention of public opinion to this fact?,”

On French referendum over EU constitution
“If it's a Yes, we will say 'on we go', and if it's a No we will say 'we continue’,”

The defence of the EU coalesces around trade and jobs, and whilst these advantages are undeniable are jobs and profits for global businesses worth more than sovereignty?

I am not anti capitalist, but capitalism should serve the people not the other way round. The fact that Juncker turned Luxembourg into a tax haven for businesses to avoid local taxes indicates his outlook and connections. Some of the social policy is a bone to throw to the union dogs.

Little wonder why we always hear from the independent CBI on the importance of EU membership, what we don't see if the hundreds of thousands of ponds they get from the EU to propagate that message.

Many thanks for your reply. I am in no way an economist, and if you are, and thus able to make these judgements, then fine. As a layman, therefore, I do find what you say that shade simplistic: global enterprise and sovereignty -is there no way both can co-exist? Is it really either . or? Presumably the CBI are pro EU because it is good for jobs and trade as you state, so why should they not trumpet the advantages? And do the CBI really get cash handouts to tell us that the EU is there to benefit us? I have never seen this reported in the press, and yet with so much publicity that is negative to the EU, I am sure that it would have been seized upon.

 

[Kuipers Supporters Club]

I'm very much down the middle with this debate, but some people on here are blindly ignore some facts who are anti-UKIP.

It makes you look very silly and petulant.

 

[cunning fergus]

Many thanks for your reply. I am in no way an economist, and if you are, and thus able to make these judgements, then fine. As a layman, therefore, I do find what you say that shade simplistic: global enterprise and sovereignty -is there no way both can co-exist? Is it really either . or? Presumably the CBI are pro EU because it is good for jobs and trade as you state, so why should they not trumpet the advantages? And do the CBI really get cash handouts to tell us that the EU is there to benefit us? I have never seen this reported in the press, and yet with so much publicity that is negative to the EU, I am sure that it would have been seized upon.

Isn't the immigration debate symptomatic of the tension (and up reconcilable nature) of business interests and sovereignty?

Whilst freedom of movement is an EU principle, as it plays out in the UK debates and representation in the media it is the business leaders, CBI and politicians that advocate the benefits.

In the meantime the UK regardless of what the electorate want are powerless to control immigration and consequently our labour market. An uncontrolled labour market will not manage supply and demand and where there is over supply labour costs will fall..........as they have.

An economist is not needed, all the politicians accept that this is the position for millions of British workers today on min wage and zero hour contracts.

So who benefits from this dynamic..........big business and their political friends, or the British working class?

The CBI do receive funds from the EU, and are therefore conflicted in their outlook.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/business/economics/article4262740.ece

 

[Dandyman]

I would want far more than sweeping statements such as this, please. I don't think he is blaming our economic woes on immigrants at all - this a gross exaggeration. Ironically, he is talking up the economy. What he is saying is that the British people would like to see more fairness, in that people who come here often from poorer countries should not expect instant benefits, to which they will not have contributed. Immigrants who work undoubtedly DO contribute to the economy, but the stresses are elsewhere, notably on the NHS and in some schools. I would need persuading that a "greedy, incompetent and under regulated financial sector", as you put it, is responsible for the poverty in, say, Romania, which is the spur for their citizens to wish to seek a better life in the UK. No one doubts that there is greed -there always has been and always will be - but surely the financial sector can't be blamed for everything, convenient as it is to think so.

http://www.economist.com/news/schoo...risis-are-still-being-felt-five-years-article



http://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-articles/1114/051114-economic-impact-EU-immigration

 

[brighton fella]

and yet with so much publicity that is negative to the EU,.

such a good read but then you go and let yourself down with this.

 

[alexanderhills]

Not a chance. The most seats they'll win is about 4 or 5. Also to be honest opinion polls mean shit all (Scotland) and even if they did get that proportion of votes that the opinion poll is suggesting, it'll be finishing 2nd and 3rd in most consistuanies.

 

[Soulman]

I think your claim that "you are in the minority" is rather misleading. You are presumably referring to UKIP's support, which may well be "only" 25% but what the OP was talking about was the electorate in general which is reflected by the support for UKIP and in this respect in my humble opinion he is quite right. There is genuine concern in the country about what is widely perceived as excessive immigration; you may indulge in the customary sniping about Murdoch, but utterances by the two major parties recently, that they will get tough, shows that they too are aware of the general feeling. I think you will find that most people do care.

Yep. My sentiments as well.

 

[Soulman]

What a lot of rubbish. Again. You have perfected the art of waffle.
You keep the name. Makes you look 'smart'
Show me where I derailed this thread. Do you think it may have been a response to a prat? ie YOU ?
YOU decided to bring my name into the thread most recently, by hurling an insult at me, to which I responded. Feel free to check. (#228)

...and I LOVE hearing UKIP supporters 'debate'. They tend to show themselves up without any help,

Dear oh dear Dave. Why are you so angry and bitter. You will be the least affected if UKIP did get in, which frankly they have as much chance as you debating sensibly and free of insults.

 

[daveinprague]

Dear oh dear Dave. Why are you so angry and bitter. You will be the least affected if UKIP did get in, which frankly they have as much chance as you debating sensibly and free of insults.

Not bitter at all. Not even angry. I am not a little Englander.

 

[Soulman]

Not bitter at all. Not even angry. I am not a little Englander.

Fair enough, never in doubt that you living in Prague would suggest you are a little Englander, or that your anti UKIP obsession would be so apparent/relevant.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

I am not a little Englander.

Ah ,that good old simpleton insult .... well done .... very imaginative.

 

[Hastings gull]

http://www.economist.com/news/schoo...risis-are-still-being-felt-five-years-article



http://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-articles/1114/051114-economic-impact-EU-immigration

Many thanks for the links -appreciated. I looked at the first one and have to admit that I find it hard to totally fathom out complicated items on economics, and if this is your forte, then fine. Of course, there is always the suspicion that links chosen are taken from papers/magazines etc that simply confirm the reader's views. But the thread was about immigration and I could not find anything to do with that. Then I saw the other link and this confirmed what I had thought. This "study" has also received much criticism, as you may know. Yes, if the immigrants are working, then undoubtedly they do have a positive effect on the economy, but this is IF. The study did not take into account the effect on the NHS and schools. And of course it does not make any mention of immigration from non-eu countries, which is likely to have more far-reaching consequences for our society. It has since emerged that the person responsible for the "study" was the same "expert" who predicted all those years ago, that 13,000 Poles would come here -in the event, I think it is about 700.000. The problem with links, used, as in this case, to demonstrate a point, is that they do not necessarily give an unbiased account.

 

[Hastings gull]

such a good read but then you go and let yourself down with this.

Thanks for the compliment! I am not trying to be controversial at all, just simply stating that in much of the press, we hear, rightly or wrongly, reports that put the EU in a bad light. I am NOT trying to put a slant on it at all. Honestly!

 

[Hastings gull]

Isn't the immigration debate symptomatic of the tension (and up reconcilable nature) of business interests and sovereignty?

Whilst freedom of movement is an EU principle, as it plays out in the UK debates and representation in the media it is the business leaders, CBI and politicians that advocate the benefits.

In the meantime the UK regardless of what the electorate want are powerless to control immigration and consequently our labour market. An uncontrolled labour market will not manage supply and demand and where there is over supply labour costs will fall..........as they have.

An economist is not needed, all the politicians accept that this is the position for millions of British workers today on min wage and zero hour contracts.

So who benefits from this dynamic..........big business and their political friends, or the British working class?

The CBI do receive funds from the EU, and are therefore conflicted in their outlook.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/business/economics/article4262740.ece

I am sure that to an extent you are right; business leaders do advocate staying in the EU presumably because of trade and ease of travel. I am not sure that your claim of political leaders is as valid - the tide seems to be changing against the EU, and not just UKIP. Non-EU immigration tends, I think, to worry people more, as they see areas being totally transformed and worry about the stresses on the infrastructure, to say nothing of extreme religious dogma. This has little to do with business.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

I am sure that to an extent you are right; business leaders do advocate staying in the EU presumably because of trade and ease of travel. I am not sure that your claim of political leaders is as valid - the tide seems to be changing against the EU, and not just UKIP. Non-EU immigration tends, I think, to worry people more, as they see areas being totally transformed and worry about the stresses on the infrastructure, to say nothing of extreme religious dogma. This has little to do with business.

If we do ever get this referendum all we will hear is the business case for us to stay in, scaremongering, as much dirt thrown at UKIP as possible, anything to scare the general public in to voting yes for staying in. The whole debate about open borders will completely shut down even though it is equally as important, and all the while this goes on the numbers coming to this country just keep on increasing. What I read today, we will need to build a city the size of Birmingham every 30 months to keep up with this demand. That's coming from the office of National Statistics. I don't know when the penny is going to drop on the numbers side of immigration, but I just hope we don't ever have another recession, because we will then see the real fallout.

 

[cunning fergus]

I am sure that to an extent you are right; business leaders do advocate staying in the EU presumably because of trade and ease of travel. I am not sure that your claim of political leaders is as valid - the tide seems to be changing against the EU, and not just UKIP. Non-EU immigration tends, I think, to worry people more, as they see areas being totally transformed and worry about the stresses on the infrastructure, to say nothing of extreme religious dogma. This has little to do with business.

I disagree, business leaders motives are clear, it's about capitalism for them, always has been.

The politicians less so, however they are unequivocally for the EU. They will use whatever they can to justify this position, and growth and jobs has been the mantra for years, take Ken Clarke as a prime example.

However, the public can see the emperors new clothes (not least following the disastrous consequences of the euro) and so now peace in Europe has been thrown into the mix, with the EU getting the Nobel peace prize (from an avowed pro EU Norwegian prime minster).

The public are forcing the mood, UKIP is the only show in town, the pro EU politicians are now looking weak........take Clegg for instance.

I know it's not all about the EU or immigration per se, but it's a significant aspect nonetheless.

 

[Hastings gull]

I disagree, business leaders motives are clear, it's about capitalism for them, always has been.

The politicians less so, however they are unequivocally for the EU. They will use whatever they can to justify this position, and growth and jobs has been the mantra for years, take Ken Clarke as a prime example.

However, the public can see the emperors new clothes (not least following the disastrous consequences of the euro) and so now peace in Europe has been thrown into the mix, with the EU getting the Nobel peace prize (from an avowed pro EU Norwegian prime minster).

The public are forcing the mood, UKIP is the only show in town, the pro EU politicians are now looking weak........take Clegg for instance.

I know it's not all about the EU or immigration per se, but it's a significant aspect nonetheless.

I don't disbelieve you for one moment when you say that business leaders' motives are clear -they see the EU as a good thing and if you want to be cynical, then it just continues capitalism, or whatever. My point is simply that your average punter in the street is not concerned with business/capitalism etc etc, but that rapid changes brought about by what they see as excessive immigration will have unfortunate consequences for your society.
With the best will in the world, I can't see your logic about European peace and the Nobel Peace Prize?

 

[brighton fella]

Thanks for the compliment! I am not trying to be controversial at all, just simply stating that in much of the press, we hear, rightly or wrongly, reports that put the EU in a bad light. I am NOT trying to put a slant on it at all. Honestly!

reports that put the EU in a bad light......I would of said the complete opposite and I would have said the media are doing their upmost to promote the EU in a good light.
never have I heard the mainstream media expose the EU for what it actually is.. though It is very important that we are made fully aware.

an example of this is you would have thought at the very least something as serious and important as the audit commission and the credibility of the EU accounts were dismissed from ever being made public really should be more heavily publicised...but instead the subject is completely dismissed. had this of been a business the auditors would of wrapped the whole thing up years ago.

and finally apart from the EU commissioners and the fact that most of them were or still are communists Marxists etc the referendum given over by them to 3 nation states I.E. Holland france and ireland and their decision to overturn the outcome at any cost going should have atleast sent alarm bells ringing. or at the very least the matter been discussed a lot more.. but not a murmur from anyone and again the whole thing completely dismissed as if it had never of happened.

 

[daveinprague]

The Swiss are very clued up

Agreed

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30267042