Could be interesting... Dispatches C4 tomoorrow - Albion to be heavily featured

[Creaky]

Agreed but where do you stop and why? Do all scousers really live in slums and bin dip? Is it acceptable to insult fat people with pie chants?

No - I don't think it is acceptable - do you?

Really? Holding hands and bum sex is offensive is it?

Puerile argument - is being illegitimate offensive?

Would you find it offensive to be called a *******?


EDIT
Obviously those who set up the word censor thinks the word b*a*s*t*a*r*d is offensive

 

[symyjym]

This isn’t really a football problem, it’s a social problem that rears its ugly head in football.

Any abuse from a crowd targeting individuals is the same as ganging up, taunting or bullying on the school playground. There are always a wannabe leaders with followers behind them and it should be tackled at school level. Maybe it should be a duty for all professional footballers to visit local schools to educate kids on all forms of crowd abuse, whether at the football, via the internet or anywhere else.

 

[Triggaaar]

Agreed but where do you stop and why?

Hate crimes include homophobia and racism, so I don't think chants that persecute race or sexual orientation should be allowed. I also don't think people should be allowed to make anti disability chants - fortunately that doesn't seem to happen, so it's not a problem, but I would include it in what's not acceptable. Taking the piss out of us for being southern softies, Liverpudlians for being benefit scroungers, Palace for being chavs, are not hate crimes, and not really serious. Swearing is also not a hate crime, although rather boringly, it seems the club are trying to stop it. Taking the piss out of tall/short, thin/fat people, is also not a hate crime, and would not be included. The line is quite clear, and it's not the thin end of the wedge. If it was, then why stop racism.

Really? Holding hands and bum sex is offensive is it?

Criticising people for it is offensive.

I haven't

Fine, but you seem to be suggesting it's an ok thing to say.

 

[Grapes of Wrath]

Maybe in an attempt to not offend anyone, we should sit silently at each match, perhaps with just a polite round of applause when we score our solitary goal. I suppose the alternative is don't attend. Can't say I fancy either really!

 

[fat old seagull]

DA i'll await with interest!!!!

Your gaydar must be pretty good. To compare two people. (Generalisation alert) I know one Brighton fan who has a shaved head and multiple tattoos. The other one wears a tank top, his best friend is a girl and he drinks wine instead of pints - Which one is the 'gayer'?

Whilst not offended by any sort of chanting, I do wonder why people aim to offend. It's quite possible to have a good drunken sing song without having to be vile. Maybe I'm alone in that.

You're not alone BoF. But sadly, as is the way of human nature there's more than a desired percentage of Homo Sapiens who not only can't be nice, but have no desire to be so...... though doubtless they are the first to get pizzed off if they are the brunt of it themselves.

 

[Dan Aitch]

It would appear that the Albion need to do a lot more work to educate their own fans about what's acceptable, what's allowing intolerance to happen unchallenged, and what's simply indicating that a number of their fans are part of the problem.

Too many of the responses here, to my way of thinking, show that the bias, discrimination, ignorance and offensive behaviour that is prevalent in so many fans are too deeply ingrained in the Brighton fans who are allegedly the victims of such behaviour.

Some of you make me embarrassed to be a Brighton fan, make me wish I could change your draconian and offensive attitudes, and make me wish I could make examples of you, show you what bigots you are, and wake you up to the impact of your shoddy and despicable behaviour... and the most shameful part is that most of you won't even realise that it's your comments that make me feel this way.

Some of us should try to make a stand and start risking having the crap kicked out of us by confronting the Brighton contingent of 'twats some of us would rather weren't even here' whenever we can. You twats know who you are... but some of you, it would appear, have no idea that you're part of the problem.

"We've come many miles but we still have miles to go".

 

[Guinness Boy]

No - I don't think it is acceptable - do you?

Puerile argument - is being illegitimate offensive?

Would you find it offensive to be called a *******?

EDIT
Obviously those who set up the word censor thinks the word b*a*s*t*a*r*d is offensive

Hate crimes include homophobia and racism, so I don't think chants that persecute race or sexual orientation should be allowed. I also don't think people should be allowed to make anti disability chants - fortunately that doesn't seem to happen, so it's not a problem, but I would include it in what's not acceptable. Taking the piss out of us for being southern softies, Liverpudlians for being benefit scroungers, Palace for being chavs, are not hate crimes, and not really serious. Swearing is also not a hate crime, although rather boringly, it seems the club are trying to stop it. Taking the piss out of tall/short, thin/fat people, is also not a hate crime, and would not be included. The line is quite clear, and it's not the thin end of the wedge. If it was, then why stop racism.

Criticising people for it is offensive.
Fine, but you seem to be suggesting it's an ok thing to say.

I think we could go round all day countering points. Instead I'm going to tell you a story as to why I support bushy and Woody and not you two.

Homophobic chanting is specific to the Albion. Not coincidentally I would wager we are one of the most gay friendly clubs in the league. I know of two openly gay Brighton fans who go regularly and there's the Football Against Homophobia banner. So if the chants are designed to put off gay people (or offend them all) they are not working or at least, not nearly as well as the heated working class hetrosexual atmosphere at a Millwall v West Ham match. It is not the chants that put people off. So should we be tackling Millwall v West Ham games where the atmosphere is aggressive but there are not homophobic chants? I don't think so.

Back in the 90s I went raving and I went to dance clubs. I went on Fridays to the Zap which was officially mixed-gay. A lot of the punters were gay. A lot of the DJs were gay. Between them they talked me in to more full on nights like Trade on Tour and Wild Fruit. At no point did Io feel offended by the snogging men or high energy music. At no point did I ask the DJ to make the music less gay or leave because I was intimidated. I loved the fact it was so different to everything else in my life, but most of the time I restricted myself to mixed or hetrosexual nights.

So if gay people are going at the moment they must enjoy an element of the atmosphere. Why SHOULD football tone it down? Why shouldn't it have it's own culture? And if they are not going do they want to? It's a genuine question. Why should football be inclusive?

This may not be the same point that I was making before but I do wonder why the need for inclusiveness? Football is a huge part of black culture but it's not a huge part of gay culture and as you can tell from the above I've met a few.

 

[SIMMO SAYS]

It would appear that the Albion need to do a lot more work to educate their own fans about what's acceptable, what's allowing intolerance to happen unchallenged, and what's simply indicating that a number of their fans are part of the problem.

Too many of the responses here, to my way of thinking, show that the bias, discrimination, ignorance and offensive behaviour that is prevalent in so many fans are too deeply ingrained in the Brighton fans who are allegedly the victims of such behaviour.

Some of you make me embarrassed to be a Brighton fan, make me wish I could change your draconian and offensive attitudes, and make me wish I could make examples of you, show you what bigots you are, and wake you up to the impact of your shoddy and despicable behaviour... and the most shameful part is that most of you won't even realise that it's your comments that make me feel this way.

Some of us should try to make a stand and start risking having the crap kicked out of us by confronting the Brighton contingent of 'twats some of us would rather weren't even here' whenever we can. You twats know who you are... but some of you, it would appear, have no idea that you're part of the problem.

"We've come many miles but we still have miles to go".

With great respect Dan you appear to live in a utopian world.
Are you really a fan or just on the wrong forum.
You are definitely preaching to a lot of the wrong people on NSC.

Are you a vicar in real life ---- if that is the case get a life.

 

[Bozza]

[tweet]440582767194427392[/tweet]

[tweet]440584410514329601[/tweet]

 

[Beach Seagull]

exactly how I feel.

And me.

 

[Dan Aitch]

Are you a vicar in real life ---- if that is the case get a life.

I might be an idealist but I'm not a vicar. I just think that if you aim for the stars and you miss, you might still end up landing on the moon. It's a 5hite analogy but as far as diversity, equality and inclusion are concerned, many seem to be lacking in respect, awareness and an appreciation of their impact upon others. I'd just love to see things change and know that the Albion and most of their fans can take some credit for it.

 

[Guinness Boy]

...

 

[Creaky]

So if gay people are going at the moment they must enjoy an element of the atmosphere. Why SHOULD football tone it down? Why shouldn't it have it's own culture? And if they are not going do they want to? It's a genuine question. Why should football be inclusive?

This may not be the same point that I was making before but I do wonder why the need for inclusiveness? Football is a huge part of black culture but it's not a huge part of gay culture and as you can tell from the above I've met a few.

Football may well be a 'huge part of black culture' and that may at last start to be reflected by the number of members of the ethnic minorities who now attend matches. When a survey was taken in 2000 the percentage of non-white fans was around the 1% mark - according to the Premier League that has grown to about 11%. Is it just coincidence that during that period there was an active clamp down on racist behaviour.

To claim that football is 'not a huge part of gay culture' really is a little presumptive. In the case of players their ethnicity cannot be hidden and as such their part in football is highly visible, not so in the case of homosexual players - unless of course you believe there aren't any!

As for the need for inclusiveness the other side of that coin is exclusivity - why should the minority of fans who want to cuss and swear at every opportunity, to shout out derogatory anti-homosexual, racist or other general insults be allowed to dictate what behaviour is acceptable to the vast majority of supporters.

A poster earlier in this thread said to those who thought such behaviour was unacceptable

Stay away, go, don't bother coming back. Those that remain will have a truly more football experience for it, passion, excitement, noise, colour, tears and joy. those that object to this should go watch snooker, take their kids to the gymkana, and on Saturday afternoon perhaps go to the cinema.

I'd guess that if that advice was taken then the stadium would be almost empty.

 

[The Merry Prankster]

I think we could go round all day countering points. Instead I'm going to tell you a story as to why I support bushy and Woody and not you two.

By his company shall ye know him.

 

[Guinness Boy]

[tweet]440582767194427392[/tweet]

[tweet]440584410514329601[/tweet]

Presuming this is a general point but this is kind of what I'm on about. Getting abuse from your own fans is inexcusable and I never once got 'straight abuse' at dance nights either. However, it seems that the chants from away fans or the general atmosphere haven't put Gay Seagull off getting a season ticket. I am making a giant assumption on their behalf though.

 

[SIMMO SAYS]

I might be an idealist but I'm not a vicar. I just think that if you aim for the stars and you miss, you might still end up landing on the moon. It's a 5hite analogy but as far as diversity, equality and inclusion are concerned, many seem to be lacking in respect, awareness and an appreciation of their impact upon others. I'd just love to see things change and know that the Albion and most of their fans can take some credit for it.

I respect your views Dan ----- it may take more than a generation for change.
Judging by the foul mouthed teenagers around me at Millwall on Saturday I wish you luck.
I admit I come from the seventies following the Albion----It was a different world then and I admit I am slow to change my behaviour (it ain't that bad!)
In those days,to get back intact after an away day was a bonus

 

[Guinness Boy]

By his company shall ye know him.

My company on other threads has been Baron Pepperpot, the TSLR lads and Nibble. I think it's important to take a stance based on your feelings rather than toeing a line prescripted by a particular ideology. Football attracted me because it was male, hetrosexual and edgy. Dance music attracted me because it was androgynous, inclusive and edgy. Most of my favourite writers are women. By my company you shall certainly know me but you'll end up f***ing confused.

 

[Twinkle Toes]

I think we could go round all day countering points. Instead I'm going to tell you a story as to why I support bushy and Woody and not you two.

Homophobic chanting is specific to the Albion. Not coincidentally I would wager we are one of the most gay friendly clubs in the league. I know of two openly gay Brighton fans who go regularly and there's the Football Against Homophobia banner. So if the chants are designed to put off gay people (or offend them all) they are not working or at least, not nearly as well as the heated working class hetrosexual atmosphere at a Millwall v West Ham match. It is not the chants that put people off. So should we be tackling Millwall v West Ham games where the atmosphere is aggressive but there are not homophobic chants? I don't think so.

Back in the 90s I went raving and I went to dance clubs. I went on Fridays to the Zap which was officially mixed-gay. A lot of the punters were gay. A lot of the DJs were gay. Between them they talked me in to more full on nights like Trade on Tour and Wild Fruit. At no point did Io feel offended by the snogging men or high energy music. At no point did I ask the DJ to make the music less gay or leave because I was intimidated. I loved the fact it was so different to everything else in my life, but most of the time I restricted myself to mixed or hetrosexual nights.

So if gay people are going at the moment they must enjoy an element of the atmosphere. Why SHOULD football tone it down? Why shouldn't it have it's own culture? And if they are not going do they want to? It's a genuine question. Why should football be inclusive?

This may not be the same point that I was making before but I do wonder why the need for inclusiveness? Football is a huge part of black culture but it's not a huge part of gay culture and as you can tell from the above I've met a few.

You make many interesting points, based on your own experiences of nights that were all the more enjoyable - thanks to the mixed crowds they attracted. I did much the same as you in a different city, and had equally fantastic & enlightening experiences. So why should football, in the year 2014, be anything other than inclusive if we can both see how great the benefits were to the dance scene?

I witnessed first-hand how the antics of the young, working class, heterosexual, tooled-up males virtually brought football in this country to its knees in the late 70's & 80's: with their bigoted & hostile antics in & around football grounds (& beyond). I can only speak for myself, but I'll be damned if I ever want to see a return to such fear-inducing times in this day & age. It was ****ing horrible. I know the multitude of changes made to our national game over subsequent decades provoke many mixed feelings & reactions to most of its fervent supporters, including myself, but now we have a wide variety of folk in attendance on match days who, in my opinion, are extremely worthy of one another's respect. Without them, our own club (for example) would rapidly shrivel & die - if it just decided to cater for those who uphold some of the less than enlightened values of the traditional working class supporter.

We're all individuals; we're all Albion. So why the Hell do some people carry on like their attitudes & behavior is somehow a blueprint for the rest of us to follow: & if we don't like it or oppose certain aspects - then we should all just piss off & watch a game of rounders on a local park of a Saturday afternoon? Frankly, without modern football's model of inclusivity, I'd have been doing something else with my time, energies & money a long time ago.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Football may well be a 'huge part of black culture' and that may at last start to be reflected by the number of members of the ethnic minorities who now attend matches. When a survey was taken in 2000 the percentage of non-white fans was around the 1% mark - according to the Premier League that has grown to about 11%. Is it just coincidence that during that period there was an active clamp down on racist behaviour.

To claim that football is 'not a huge part of gay culture' really is a little presumptive. In the case of players their ethnicity cannot be hidden and as such their part in football is highly visible, not so in the case of homosexual players - unless of course you believe there aren't any!

Of course I don't believe there aren't any. But what's your precise experience with the gay community? Did you spend about seven years worth of your life clubbing with a large group of gay people? Did you help a friend come out? I did.

As for the need for inclusiveness the other side of that coin is exclusivity - why should the minority of fans who want to cuss and swear at every opportunity, to shout out derogatory anti-homosexual, racist or other general insults be allowed to dictate what behaviour is acceptable to the vast majority of supporters.

Neither should dictate to the other. Live and let live. However....

A poster earlier in this thread said to those who thought such behaviour was unacceptable


I'd guess that if that advice was taken then the stadium would be almost empty.

No, no it wouldn't. The stadiums will start to empty when the game is sanitized and tickets go about £50 a pop for bang average seats. The atmosphere will disappear from games and the tv money will f**k off quicker than you can say 'political correctness'.

 

[brighton bluenose]

I think we could go round all day countering points. Instead I'm going to tell you a story as to why I support bushy and Woody and not you two.

Homophobic chanting is specific to the Albion. Not coincidentally I would wager we are one of the most gay friendly clubs in the league. I know of two openly gay Brighton fans who go regularly and there's the Football Against Homophobia banner. So if the chants are designed to put off gay people (or offend them all) they are not working or at least, not nearly as well as the heated working class hetrosexual atmosphere at a Millwall v West Ham match. It is not the chants that put people off. So should we be tackling Millwall v West Ham games where the atmosphere is aggressive but there are not homophobic chants? I don't think so.

Back in the 90s I went raving and I went to dance clubs. I went on Fridays to the Zap which was officially mixed-gay. A lot of the punters were gay. A lot of the DJs were gay. Between them they talked me in to more full on nights like Trade on Tour and Wild Fruit. At no point did Io feel offended by the snogging men or high energy music. At no point did I ask the DJ to make the music less gay or leave because I was intimidated. I loved the fact it was so different to everything else in my life, but most of the time I restricted myself to mixed or hetrosexual nights.

So if gay people are going at the moment they must enjoy an element of the atmosphere. Why SHOULD football tone it down? Why shouldn't it have it's own culture? And if they are not going do they want to? It's a genuine question. Why should football be inclusive?

This may not be the same point that I was making before but I do wonder why the need for inclusiveness? Football is a huge part of black culture but it's not a huge part of gay culture and as you can tell from the above I've met a few.

So you know TWO openly gay people who regularly attend out of 26,000 odd and that makes us 'gay friendly' - LOL you really couldn't make it up!!