Contact Tracing App

[Billy the Fish]

Very much so... The blind trust displayed on this thread, whilst belittling anyone who challenges the concept of this app is worrying! I work in IT/Network security and understand the full implications of an app such as this. I'm not sure some of the folk here classing anyone who questions this app as a "tin foil hat" loony even know what they are talking about when it comes to technology, and just blindly trust what's presented to them.

To quote Benjamin Franklin: “Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

Totally agree and I work in IT/InfoSec as well. A lot of blind faith going on.

Can you put some meat on the bones please chaps. Specifically what do we need to be worried about? So far the main problem is not trusting Tories.

What do you think they'll realistically try to do?

 

[DarrenFreemansPerm]

Looks like the app will notify you if a nearby 'self diagnosis' was wrong.

https://www.ncsc.gov.uk/information/nhs-covid-19-app-explainer

Very much so... The blind trust displayed on this thread, whilst belittling anyone who challenges the concept of this app is worrying! I work in IT/Network security and understand the full implications of an app such as this. I'm not sure some of the folk here classing anyone who questions this app as a "tin foil hat" loony even know what they are talking about when it comes to technology, and just blindly trust what's presented to them.

To quote Benjamin Franklin: “Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

Unless you give the rest of us uninformed plebs some insight as to why you’re so against the app your post is just going to come across as a bit smug.

 

[dadams2k11]

Can you put some meat on the bones please chaps. Specifically what do we need to be worried about? So far the main problem is not trusting Tories.

What do you think they'll realistically try to do?

It's to track us, simple as that, bit by bit our rights and privacy are being taken away in the name of saving the country when in reality they don't give a sh1t about us which as been proven over the years. It's one big rat race.

Unfortunately, we now live in a world where if you dare question the narrative you get shut down and told you're mad or a looney.

YouTube and Facebook stopping people posting videos that go against the narrative about Covid 19 and 5G. Not that I think there is any conspiracy but last time I checked we had freedom of speech. Makes you wonder what they are scared off.

I like to gather information and make my own mind up, not just go with what I'm told think.

 

[Butch Willykins]

It's to track us, simple as that, bit by bit our rights and privacy are being taken away in the name of saving the country when in reality they don't give a sh1t about us which as been proven over the years. It's one big rat race.

Unfortunately, we now live in a world where if you dare question the narrative you get shut down and told you're mad or a looney.

YouTube and Facebook stopping people posting videos that go against the narrative about Covid 19 and 5G. Not that I think there is any conspiracy but last time I checked we had freedom of speech. Makes you wonder what they are scared off.

I like to gather information and make my own mind up, not just go with what I'm told think.

But you said from an IT security point of view you wouldn’t download the app. From what I can see what you have posted above doesn’t have anything to do with IT security.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Very much so... The blind trust displayed on this thread, whilst belittling anyone who challenges the concept of this app is worrying! I work in IT/Network security and understand the full implications of an app such as this. I'm not sure some of the folk here classing anyone who questions this app as a "tin foil hat" loony even know what they are talking about when it comes to technology, and just blindly trust what's presented to them.

To quote Benjamin Franklin: “Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

Totally agree and I work in IT/InfoSec as well. A lot of blind faith going on.

My point has been, if you’re using a smart phone with location services to apps, have social media accounts, accounts with the big tech companies etc etc then ‘hello’ you’ve already compromised your privacy far beyond getting your knickers in a twist about a government app that in all likelihood won’t work properly anyway.

Benjamin Franklin was probably right, but I also think he’d see the irony in posting his quote through a social media platform.

 

[Bold Seagull]

It's to track us, simple as that, bit by bit our rights and privacy are being taken away in the name of saving the country when in reality they don't give a sh1t about us which as been proven over the years. It's one big rat race.

Unfortunately, we now live in a world where if you dare question the narrative you get shut down and told you're mad or a looney.

YouTube and Facebook stopping people posting videos that go against the narrative about Covid 19 and 5G. Not that I think there is any conspiracy but last time I checked we had freedom of speech. Makes you wonder what they are scared off.

I like to gather information and make my own mind up, not just go with what I'm told think.

YouTube and Facebook are private companies, effectively publishers who have ‘freedom’ to decide what their platforms do or don’t publish within the limits of the law. They’re under no obligation to grant people freedom of speech.

You’ve given no real insight as to why an app whose designated stated purpose is to track you compared to the many apps that track you through clandestine means.

 

[Mr Banana]

A better way to look at it would be to ask what they won't try to do. This is the Vote Leave bods we're talking about.

As for the comparison between this and Google...monetisation and surveillance are very different.

People really shouldn't download it or encourage anyone else to. There's already an open source track and trace option freely available and being run by scientists.

 

[Bold Seagull]

A better way to look at it would be to ask what they won't try to do. This is the Vote Leave bods we're talking about.

As for the comparison between this and Google...monetisation and surveillance are very different.

People really shouldn't download it or encourage anyone else to. There's already an open source track and trace option freely available and being run by scientists.

Ultimately the same thing: power and control.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Can you put some meat on the bones please chaps. Specifically what do we need to be worried about? So far the main problem is not trusting Tories.

What do you think they'll realistically try to do?

My concern is they ( Cummings ) will download all data from my phone. Cookies, website history, location, cross-referenced with those in my contacts.

From this they will build up a profile and use that profile to micro target messages and ads at me - which may have a reasonable chance of convincing me of something ( their agenda ).

They will nudge my freewill, and get better at doing it over time. At which point... do I really have much freewill left at all ?

 

[Mr Banana]

Ultimately the same thing: power and control.

Power and control are too elements they share, yes. They're not closely comparable.

 

[beorhthelm]

People really shouldn't download it or encourage anyone else to. There's already an open source track and trace option freely available and being run by scientists.

is there? Google and Apple are controling access to the hardware and explictly denying anything other than their apps.

 

[dazzer6666]

My concern is they ( Cummings ) will download all data from my phone. Cookies, website history, location, cross-referenced with those in my contacts.

From this they will build up a profile and use that profile to micro target messages and ads at me - which may have a reasonable chance of convincing me of something ( their agenda ).

They will nudge my freewill, and get better at doing it over time. At which point... do I really have much freewill left at all ?

NSC does that already - notice all the targeted ads that pop up ?

I'm sure I've already got dozens of apps already that track where I am, know what websites I look at, record what I research/buy and consolidate all of the above into a clear picture for someone to use if they want........one more won't make any difference so I'm happy to take that risk - if others choose not to, through fear, greater knowledge or whatever other reasons they have, that's up to them. The benefits outweigh the risks for me - but for it to work effectively it needs a high proportion of the population to sign up. I'll be pretty pissed off if I, or anyone dear to me, dies as a result of being close to someone who knew they might be infected but didn't use the app though - for me it's not too dissimilar to ignoring social distancing rules.

 

[narly101]

I'll download it for the good of the nation if it helps

However, does it satisfy human rights and data protection laws, I hope the government have done their homework on this, on the face of it a a decentralised system seems less risky in the face of legal challenges

Does seem we are the outlier again...

This with bells on. The decentralised model is the way forward, even the Germans have committed to a u-turn on the centralised model due to privacy concerns. Yet the UK are continuing with it.

Interesting as well that the "bantz" consideration has been raised in an article in the Independent today;

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ntact-tracing-cyber-attack-hack-a9500401.html

"Dr Michael Veale, a lecturer in digital rights and regulation at University College London who this week gave evidence to MPs on the technology, told The Independent that Britain’s tracing app had nothing to stop individuals “maliciously triggering notifications” using its normal functionality.

“People can deliberately put others into quarantine or report large areas,” he said. “A child could try to get a day off school by reporting symptoms from a parent’s phone to trigger a quarantine.”

Dr Veale warned that people could “lose trust in the system” and ignore alerts if they discover a false warning was issued."

 

[narly101]

Yep. I think the security issues are overstated, GDPR will protect us.

I'm not sure whether this is irony or not, so apologies is if it.

You know that GDPR has a number of exemptions. You can see all of them here; https://ico.org.uk/for-organisation...l-data-protection-regulation-gdpr/exemptions/

One of them is this I've highlighted the relevant sections;

Functions designed to protect the public

This exemption can apply if you process personal data for the purposes of discharging one of six functions designed to protect the public.

The first four functions must: be conferred on a person by enactment; be a function of the Crown, a Minister of the Crown or a government department; or be of a public nature and exercised in the public interest. These functions are:

to protect the public against financial loss due to the seriously improper conduct (or unfitness, or incompetence) of financial services providers, or in the management of bodies corporate, or due to the conduct of bankrupts;
to protect the public against seriously improper conduct (or unfitness, or incompetence);
to protect charities or community interest companies against misconduct or mismanagement in their administration, to protect the property of charities or community interest companies from loss or misapplication, or to recover the property of charities or community interest companies; or
to secure workers’ health, safety and welfare or to protect others against health and safety risks in connection with (or arising from) someone at work.
The fifth function must be conferred by enactment on: the Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration; the Commissioner for Local Administration in England; the Health Service Commissioner for England; the Public Services Ombudsman for Wales; the Northern Ireland Public Services Ombudsman; the Prison Ombudsman for Northern Ireland; or the Scottish Public Services Ombudsman. This function is:

to protect the public from maladministration, or a failure in services provided by a public body, or from the failure to provide a service that it is a function of a public body to provide.
The sixth function must be conferred by enactment on the Competition and Markets Authority. This function is:

to protect members of the public from business conduct adversely affecting them, to regulate conduct (or agreements) preventing, restricting or distorting commercial competition, or to regulate undertakings abusing a dominant market position.

If you process personal data for any of the above functions, you are exempt from the GDPR’s provisions on:

the right to be informed;
all the other individual rights, except rights related to automated individual decision-making including profiling; and
all the principles, but only so far as they relate to the right to be informed and the other individual rights.

But the exemption only applies to the extent that complying with these provisions would be likely to prejudice the proper discharge of your functions. If you can comply with these provisions and discharge your functions as normal, you must do so.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Yep. I think the security issues are overstated, GDPR will protect us.

GDPR is a regulation in EU law. After December this government can get rid of it.

 

[Billy the Fish]

It's to track us, simple as that, bit by bit our rights and privacy are being taken away in the name of saving the country when in reality they don't give a sh1t about us which as been proven over the years. It's one big rat race.

Unfortunately, we now live in a world where if you dare question the narrative you get shut down and told you're mad or a looney.

YouTube and Facebook stopping people posting videos that go against the narrative about Covid 19 and 5G. Not that I think there is any conspiracy but last time I checked we had freedom of speech. Makes you wonder what they are scared off.

I like to gather information and make my own mind up, not just go with what I'm told think.

If course it's to track us, the process is called "Track and Trace", did you not notice the global pandemic?

I was expecting a bit more detail than that given you're an expert in network security. You need to back this stuff up otherwise you will just be called a tinfoil hat wearing loon. At least you did better than the bWize bloke who has disappeared.

 

[Billy the Fish]

My concern is they ( Cummings ) will download all data from my phone. Cookies, website history, location, cross-referenced with those in my contacts.

From this they will build up a profile and use that profile to micro target messages and ads at me - which may have a reasonable chance of convincing me of something ( their agenda ).

They will nudge my freewill, and get better at doing it over time. At which point... do I really have much freewill left at all ?

I guess they're valid concerns about any app, but in this case I just can't see it happening. The whole Cambridge Analytica thing was done in secret by a small group and was only found out months later. This app has multiple stockholders and is being played out in public under massive scrutiny. If they got busted stealing data it would be enough to bring down the government. Cummings is already in power, assuming he had the inclination to do it (which is a big assumption) why would he take the risk? It would be the most audacious example of hiding in plain sight in UK history.

 

[narly101]

GDPR is a regulation in EU law. After December this government can get rid of it.

Again, I'm hoping that this is irony.

 

[Springal]

I guess they're valid concerns about any app, but in this case I just can't see it happening. The whole Cambridge Analytica thing was done in secret by a small group and was only found out months later. This app has multiple stockholders and is being played out in public under massive scrutiny. If they got busted stealing data it would be enough to bring down the government. Cummings is already in power, assuming he had the inclination to do it (which is a big assumption) why would he take the risk? It would be the most audacious example of hiding in plain sight in UK history.

Seems odd to invite the same people behind the Vote Leave App into SAGE meetings - as well as the co-founder of Google Deepmind.

Cummings is obsessed with big data / data analytics and AI/ML and using this to influence people - so you can see why people think history is repeating itself.

 

[nicko31]

This with bells on. The decentralised model is the way forward, even the Germans have committed to a u-turn on the centralised model due to privacy concerns. Yet the UK are continuing with it.

Interesting as well that the "bantz" consideration has been raised in an article in the Independent today;

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ntact-tracing-cyber-attack-hack-a9500401.html

"Dr Michael Veale, a lecturer in digital rights and regulation at University College London who this week gave evidence to MPs on the technology, told The Independent that Britain’s tracing app had nothing to stop individuals “maliciously triggering notifications” using its normal functionality.

“People can deliberately put others into quarantine or report large areas,” he said. “A child could try to get a day off school by reporting symptoms from a parent’s phone to trigger a quarantine.”

Dr Veale warned that people could “lose trust in the system” and ignore alerts if they discover a false warning was issued."

For this AP to work it need mass public participation, you need trust from the public

Surely this alone suggests a decentralised platform would be better approach, and the problem is the Johnson / Cummins / Vote Leave machine has form when it comes to the use of personal data

Its a big problem for them