Civil servants vote for strike ballot over cuts

[beorhthelm]

If anyone should be held responsible, it's the governments of heath, wilson, callaghan and thatcher. Don't try and pin it on the public sector workers just because they are supposed to be doing better than MacJob employees.

no disagreement with that list of responsible parties. no one is pinning it on the public sector workers, they haven't done anything (no pun intended. well maybe a little), it is they who think they shouldnt have any involvement in the solution. you are the one that raised the "bumper pensions" here.

 

[Lokki 7]

So if there is a civil service vacancy advertised, should we all benefit the big society by NOT applying for it?

It is not the fault of people who have applied for and accepted government jobs that the economy is in a mess. You cannot blame a £1 trillion national debt on public sector pensions, remember parts of this debt dates back to the nineteenth century.

Closer scrutiny should be paid to the 70's and 80's. What happened to all the oil and gas revenue? What happened to our global technological lead in the electronics and aerospace industry? If anyone should be held responsible, it's the governments of heath, wilson, callaghan and thatcher. Don't try and pin it on the public sector workers just because they are supposed to be doing better than MacJob employees.

It smells suspiciously like the politics of envy.

I actually agree with most of this, it's just your paranoia and 'hard done by' attitude I disagree with. I'm not blaming the public sector, of course this country couldn't survive without it. I just want it to be subject to the rigours of the modern world. If it isn't then we are all f***ed.

 

[Mammoth]

I actually agree with most of this, it's just your paranoia and 'hard done by' attitude I disagree with. I'm not blaming the public sector, of course this country couldn't survive without it. I just want it to be subject to the rigours of the modern world. If it isn't then we are all f***ed.

Not paranoid. Angry.

There are too many people who think the civil service should just disappear, despite not really understanding the complexity of its many roles.

You still haven't explained why you called the union man a wanker- do you say this to everyone you disagree with? I would imagine you must get into lots of fights- 'i don't like your tie/ politics/ girlfriend- wanker'!

 

[Buzzer]

I've never known a public sector pension vaguely like that. I very much doubt you have either

He's right. The Principal Civil Service Pension Scheme is unfunded by it's members. They pay for death in service benefits only and employer contributions range from 12% or thereabouts to 20% and upwards for top paid staff. The defined benefits scheme also has an employer only element so civil servants can have an employer funded DC scheme too.

 

[Hatterlovesbrighton]

I've never known a public sector pension vaguely like that. I very much doubt you have either

The current PCSPS premium scheme is 3.5% employee 20% employer

 

[bhaexpress]

No one is saying that the Civil Service should disappear, most people want to see it overhauled and rationalised and thus be put on a par with the private sector. In fact my experience of Civil Service Union officials is not much different to that of those I've encountered in the private sector. They are deemed wankers as frankly they let their own agendas and politics dictate their actions rather than the wishes and opinions of the people they are supposed to represent. I'm not anti union just aware that some union officials are more interested in themselves than their members.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

Not if they were doing it illegally, they couldn't, as they would risk being taken to court. Which, from my understanding, is what the unions are planning on doing.

I take you're not too long in the employment game.

 

[beorhthelm]

Have you or your family ever had cause to use the NHS? Labour's 'tribal mantra' brought it into being. The Tories opposed it. Sure every government has its ideology, its just that some ideologies are more attuned to benefitting the greater good of society than others.

and sometimes the ideolgy is broader than their tribe, who doesnt support the NHS really? (i mean even the rabid tories would support it in some form). theres a saying that he NHS is the closest the British have to a state religion, i'd hold that to be true. but there's other ideology thats just wastefull and short sighted, off the top of my head, spending £11 billion on an ID scheme no one wanted, £5 billion on another programme of school refurbishment after 10 years of improvements. education is great, but where the f*** did all that previous cash go and why would it cost so much more? i recall at the time someone said it was enough to rebuild every single school, let alone refurbish those suppsoedly in need of mere repair.

 

[Lokki 7]

Not paranoid. Angry.

There are too many people who think the civil service should just disappear, despite not really understanding the complexity of its many roles.

You are letting your anger cloud your reason. No one here is saying that the civil service should "just disappear". If anyone is then I will happily call them a wanker.

You still haven't explained why you called the union man a wanker- do you say this to everyone you disagree with?

Again, I disagree with you and others on this thread but did I call anyone a wanker? No. So clearly it is not just people I disagree with, you are talking nonsense. The union guy, in my opinion is putting the health of this entire nation at risk, that, in my eyes makes him a wanker. I am allowed an opinion still right?

I would imagine you must get into lots of fights- 'i don't like your tie/ politics/ girlfriend- wanker'!

You let your imagination run wild my friend, there is no charge. As it happens I haven't had a fight since I was 11 years old. I am passionate, and care about this country and ordinary hard working people. It is my strong belief that their best interests are not being served by these union WANKERS. I will continue to say so, and back that with reasonable argument without lowing to making personal slurs against you or others on this thread. We are all on the same side believe it or not.

 

[Buzzer]

The current PCSPS premium scheme is 3.5% employee 20% employer

Not quite. There are 3 bands for employees and employee contributions are only for death in service benefits. The lowest band is 1.5% Employer contributions are based on pay and split into bands.

 

[Mammoth]

No one is saying that the Civil Service should disappear, most people want to see it overhauled and rationalised and thus be put on a par with the private sector. In fact my experience of Civil Service Union officials is not much different to that of those I've encountered in the private sector. They are deemed wankers as frankly they let their own agendas and politics dictate their actions rather than the wishes and opinions of the people they are supposed to represent. I'm not anti union just aware that some union officials are more interested in themselves than their members.

So let's not let the debate be skewed from the outset by venturing into insults. As taxpayers we all have a stake in this. If any of the firms do business had shown me a cutting from a newspaper about some union man and called him a wanker because they disagreed with them, I would take my business elsewhere pretty sharpish.
Everyone knows that union and government sabre rattling is just to appease their respective supporters. The final outcome will undoubtedly be painful for staff, but the argument should not be dehumanised.
And as for the private sector, as Brighton fans lets be honest, it hasn't been a very good example over the last three decades of how to run a business. Millions of people in the UK who can't even balance their own cheque book, let alone run a profitable and successful business, like to think they could run the civil service/ economy better. Let's be honest- not many of them are likely to be right in their assumption....

 

[bhaexpress]

So let's not let the debate be skewed from the outset by venturing into insults. As taxpayers we all have a stake in this. If any of the firms do business had shown me a cutting from a newspaper about some union man and called him a wanker because they disagreed with them, I would take my business elsewhere pretty sharpish.
Everyone knows that union and government sabre rattling is just to appease their respective supporters. The final outcome will undoubtedly be painful for staff, but the argument should not be dehumanised.
And as for the private sector, as Brighton fans lets be honest, it hasn't been a very good example over the last three decades of how to run a business. Millions of people in the UK who can't even balance their own cheque book, let alone run a profitable and successful business, like to think they could run the civil service/ economy better. Let's be honest- not many of them are likely to be right in their assumption....

So you think that the people who've saddled us with a huge national debt are any better ? Let me see now, aren't they civil servants ? Which private sector businesses are badly run then ? Care to give some examples ?

 

[User removed 4]

Would that be the way that MERVYN KINGnot those clueless cnuts alistair darling and gordon brown took the decision to stimulus spend their way out of the imminent collapse of the Global Economy, a move that was followed by every country that counts the following day? Get down on your knees five times a day and give thanks that they gave a lead. Else you'd be surviving in a cave on nuts and seasonal berries by now.

corrected for you.

 

[Mammoth]

So you think that the people who've saddled us with a huge national debt are any better ? Let me see now, aren't they civil servants ? Which private sector businesses are badly run then ? Care to give some examples ?

Badly run businesses? Where to start......

The half of all catering start ups that fold within two years.
Plymouth Argyle and plenty of other football clubs....
A long list of travel operators/ airlines that fail every summer
THE BANKS THAT NEEDED BAILING OUT BY GOVERNMENT
Every British car manufacturer..... ever.
All the empty shops on the high street, ie woolworths
Equitable Life and every other insurer currently in run off
British Airways..... need any more?

As for the debt- that was caused by a succession of chancellors of the exchequer dating back 200 years, not civil servants.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

corrected for you.

Hey, here he is, finally, Master Of The Universe, back from the pub. All we need now is The Spanish to pop up, as he invariably does within seconds, and the monkey and the organ grinder are both in situ, ready to field your questions

 

[User removed 4]

Hey, here he is, finally, Master Of The Universe, back from the pub. All we need now is The Spanish to pop up, as he invariably does within seconds, and the monkey and the organ grinder are both in situ, ready to field your questions

I merely corrected your post, you , as usual were bereft of a plausible response, resorting instead to playground style name calling.

 

[beorhthelm]

As for the debt- that was caused by a succession of chancellors of the exchequer dating back 200 years, not civil servants.

a debt spent on...

 

[keaton]

a debt spent on...

Probably completely civil servants. Wars and Hospitals pretty much pay for themselves

 

[Simster]

corrected for you.

This really is a bullshit argument though. According to you, any decent decision made by the old government was in fact decided by a pen pusher, yet they are directly responsible for anything that went tits up. No. We stimulus-spent our way out of disaster under New Labour, and that's all there is to it. I wouldn't have trusted the same decision to be made under a Tory government.

As for the point of this thread, it seems a very strange argument to be having when you consider that there are many many parts to the public sector that are contracted out privately these days. My suspicion is that there are a few pen pushing civil servants in their ivory towers who are completely detached from the real world, but there are simply not enough of these people whose working terms and conditions you'd want to reform to make a real difference.

 

[Mammoth]

This really is a bullshit argument though. According to you, any decent decision made by the old government was in fact decided by a pen pusher, yet they are directly responsible for anything that went tits up. No. We stimulus-spent our way out of disaster under New Labour, and that's all there is to it. I wouldn't have trusted the same decision to be made under a Tory government.

As for the point of this thread, it seems a very strange argument to be having when you consider that there are many many parts to the public sector that are contracted out privately these days. My suspicion is that there are a few pen pushing civil servants in their ivory towers who are completely detached from the real world, but there are simply not enough of these people whose working terms and conditions you'd want to reform to make a real difference.

Wise words.