Civil servants vote for strike ballot over cuts

[Lokki 7]

They might not 'generate wealth for this country' in the way that you interpret it, but they sure as hell never brought about its complete financial collapse either.

The financial sector is obviously responsible for a lot of pain currently, no one could argue otherwise. But don't forget where the money came from in the first place to build those hospitals, schools etc. It didn't come from thin air. And who will pay for them in the future?

Unless you live in a different reality from the rest of us, 'these people' educate your kids, police your streets, empty your bins. When you're eighty they'll be wiping your bum. In the main, they get paid a pittance for it. Like 'these people' in every Western country brought to the point of bankruptcy by stupid greedy spivs, they're not best pleased about it. They are worried about their jobs and keeping a roof over their family's heads. Why shouldn't they fight for that?

They are worried? I'm f***ing worried that this country cannot afford to continue living beyond it's means. You think it's bad now, well take a look at Greece or Portugal. If we don't do something we are f***ed, end of. You may not like it and on an individual level it is sad and painful, but it will be a hell of a lot worse if we do nothing. For everyone. I don't enjoy saying it but it is a fact.

 

[Rusthall Seagull]

Well to be fair in many cases they are sponging off the state in both instances. Streamline the public sector and I will change my mind. Why shouldn't these people lose their jobs? What divine right do they have to employment that workers in the private sector do not have? If the jobs do not exists, or the tax payer cannot afford them then why are they being paid? The axeman cometh and about time too.

Agreed, my mate who works for the civil service is just about to recieve a £30,000 redundancy package. Isn't it strange that even though efffectively broke, they can still pay out this kind of obscene money? If my company went bust due to years of overspend, then I could expect to recieve, let me think, f*** ALL

 

[keaton]

many, or token few % while the employer (the public purse) pays 10, 12, 15% contributions.


.

I've never known a public sector pension vaguely like that. I very much doubt you have either

 

[Mammoth]

Well to be fair in many cases they are sponging off the state in both instances. Streamline the public sector and I will change my mind. Why shouldn't these people lose their jobs? What divine right do they have to employment that workers in the private sector do not have? If the jobs do not exists, or the tax payer cannot afford them then why are they being paid? The axeman cometh and about time too.

This just sums up your attitude perfectly. Although sensible debate about reform is to be applauded, you do not care that the axeman affects families, peoples ability to pay for their homes. This is peoples lives we are talking about, not numbers. You are also incredibly dismissive of the people who have vehemently opposed your views (calling them wankers I believe....)
Yes, I used to work in the public sector and proudly. The way I saw it, we took shit pay to provide services for people, and in one career choice in the early nineties we risked being sent to serve in Northern Ireland. Have you ever helped anyone in your life, or just helped yourself?

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

you still dont get that the stimulus of the bail out was paid for year one. there was no bail out last year or the year before, we've paid out again years since for excessive spending on public sector - projects that should/could have been canned straight away left cooking away, new initiatives started. arguably some tax revenue didnt come in, but the vast majority of the deficit is due to beliving the boom time wouldnt end and not accepting the need to change.

I'm pretty sure that Gordon Brown knew that Labour's time was up. And that there was a fair element of rushing through contracts on building things like schools and hospitals to make them legally enforceable before they were 'canned straight away' by an incoming government that would know the price of everything and the value of nothing. Result!

 

[drew]

Hnag on...if it wasn't for the likes of you and your speculating, we wouldnt need to be in the mess would we!

:hammer:

So, what exactly does Lokki7 actually do that contributes a benefit for society? Does he fight crime, fires, does he look after the sick and those in accidents. Sounds like what he does he does purely for the benefit of himself.

 

[Lokki 7]

Would that be the way they took the decision to stimulus spend their way out of the imminent collapse of the Global Economy, a move that was followed by every country that counts the following day? Get down on your knees five times a day and give thanks that they gave a lead. Else you'd be surviving in a cave on nuts and seasonal berries by now.

And the money they spent... THEY BORROWED IT. When you borrow money I assume you expect to pay it back? Well it's payback time. You can spend less and/or earn more. The private sector is on it's knees so guess what, we need to spend less. What part of that do you not understand? Dragging the public sector into the real world is a hell of a lot less painfull than the alternative. And maybe, just maybe those public sector workers made redundant on bloated pay off's will make their way into the private sector and help us claw our way out of this mess.

 

[drew]

The financial sector is obviously responsible for a lot of pain currently, no one could argue otherwise. But don't forget where the money came from in the first place to build those hospitals, schools etc. It didn't come from thin air. And who will pay for them in the future?



They are worried? I'm f***ing worried that this country cannot afford to continue living beyond it's means. You think it's bad now, well take a look at Greece or Portugal. If we don't do something we are f***ed, end of. You may not like it and on an individual level it is sad and painful, but it will be a hell of a lot worse if we do nothing. For everyone. I don't enjoy saying it but it is a fact.

Amazing how many times the threat of us becoming the next Greece or Portugal is trotted out by those that have a personal agenda to protect their own wealth. Our economy is different to those two examples. Secondly, not anyone has said there shouldn't be measures to reduce the deficit however it is the speed of the cuts that is crippling the nation. If you have a mortgage payable over 25 years you don't suddenly have to pay it off with the next 5. I have heard no credible reason why the deficit has to be eliminated within the current parliament rather than say over two parliaments.

 

[Lokki 7]

This just sums up your attitude perfectly. Although sensible debate about reform is to be applauded, you do not care that the axeman affects families, peoples ability to pay for their homes. This is peoples lives we are talking about, not numbers. You are also incredibly dismissive of the people who have vehemently opposed your views (calling them wankers I believe....)
Yes, I used to work in the public sector and proudly. The way I saw it, we took shit pay to provide services for people, and in one career choice in the early nineties we risked being sent to serve in Northern Ireland. Have you ever helped anyone in your life, or just helped yourself?

OK firstly, the only person I have called a wanker is the union fella I named in my first post. Can you public sector workers not read or just not understand what you read?

Secondly, of course I understand the personal level of pain. But if we do NOTHING and give in to these demands then the pain will be much, much, much worse for many, many, many more people. Do you not see that? The comfy days of plenty are over, please understand that.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

The financial sector is obviously responsible for a lot of pain currently, no one could argue otherwise. But don't forget where the money came from in the first place to build those hospitals, schools etc. It didn't come from thin air. And who will pay for them in the future?

They are worried? I'm f***ing worried that this country cannot afford to continue living beyond it's means. You think it's bad now, well take a look at Greece or Portugal. If we don't do something we are f***ed, end of. You may not like it and on an individual level it is sad and painful, but it will be a hell of a lot worse if we do nothing. For everyone. I don't enjoy saying it but it is a fact.

Fair enough.

I'm glad you acknowledge that on an individual level it is sad and painful. At least we're agreed on that.

I just think that the country as a whole will be judged on how it treats the weakest members of society. Not the chancers that have made the benefit system into a career choice, I'm all in favour of these people getting the bloody good hiding they are long overdue, but at the same time there's a lot of people getting a kicking they in no way deserve. I'd like to think we're better than that.

 

[beorhthelm]

I'm pretty sure that Gordon Brown knew that Labour's time was up. And that there was a fair element of rushing through contracts on building things like schools and hospitals to make them legally enforceable before they were 'canned straight away' by an incoming government that would know the price of everything and the value of nothing. Result!

so you agree then with the point, Labour is responsible for the deficit. Result! i think the price of everything and value of nothing can be applied to any government, its not their money/jobs/welfare/education, only their tribal mantra and votes have value to them.

 

[Lokki 7]

So, what exactly does Lokki7 actually do that contributes a benefit for society? Does he fight crime, fires, does he look after the sick and those in accidents. Sounds like what he does he does purely for the benefit of himself.

I pay taxes that support the public sector. I also bring in foreign currency to this country to support our balance of payments, and we employ people who also pay taxes because we run a successful business. Why do I have to justify that to you?

 

[Mammoth]

So if there is a civil service vacancy advertised, should we all benefit the big society by NOT applying for it?

It is not the fault of people who have applied for and accepted government jobs that the economy is in a mess. You cannot blame a £1 trillion national debt on public sector pensions, remember parts of this debt dates back to the nineteenth century.

Closer scrutiny should be paid to the 70's and 80's. What happened to all the oil and gas revenue? What happened to our global technological lead in the electronics and aerospace industry? If anyone should be held responsible, it's the governments of heath, wilson, callaghan and thatcher. Don't try and pin it on the public sector workers just because they are supposed to be doing better than MacJob employees.

It smells suspiciously like the politics of envy.

 

[Mammoth]

OK firstly, the only person I have called a wanker is the union fella I named in my first post. Can you public sector workers not read or just not understand what you read?

Secondly, of course I understand the personal level of pain. But if we do NOTHING and give in to these demands then the pain will be much, much, much worse for many, many, many more people. Do you not see that? The comfy days of plenty are over, please understand that.

So you disagreed with him- that makes him a wanker?

Or just someone you disagree with?

 

[beorhthelm]

I've never known a public sector pension vaguely like that. I very much doubt you have either

my missus's actually. reduced NI too to boot.

 

[Lokki 7]

Amazing how many times the threat of us becoming the next Greece or Portugal is trotted out by those that have a personal agenda to protect their own wealth. Our economy is different to those two examples.

Well different in what way? Different in terms of industry, size and profitability yes. But any individual, company or country that spends more than it earns will one day have to pay that back or be in a lot of trouble, this is simple and universal. You think we ar ein trouble now, this is a drop in the ocean compared to the pain ordinary families will suffer if we do not change that basic principal and live within our means. I don't understand why this is controversial.

 

[Simontheseagull]

Money doesn't grow on trees and too many people and all of our Governments over the past 65 years have been living beyond their means for far too long. The Welfare State was set up on the never never after the second world war when this country was bust, and the reckoning has now arrived. Its been just like putting everything on a credit card bill and only paying off the minimum amount month after month year after year. Sooner or later we have to pay the bill or default. If this country defaults probably no one will get a public sector or state pension because there will be no money to pay them.

People can argue as much as they like about who has caused this debt. Its been Tory and Labour Goverments, Public and Private sector bosses who have run their Departments and businesses badly and inefficiently, and businesses and workers who have borrowed money that they cannot afford to pay back. Very few people have been living in the real world in this country during the last 65 years.

Sadly many public and private sector workers are now going to have to work 'til they drop. Anyone with an unrealistic outlook is going to struggle to get a job in the forseeable future if they are not currently in work, or are about to lose their jobs irrespective of whether they are in the public or private sector. Glen Murrey take note.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

i think the price of everything and value of nothing can be applied to any government, its not their money/jobs/welfare/education, only their tribal mantra and votes have value to them.

Have you or your family ever had cause to use the NHS? Labour's 'tribal mantra' brought it into being. The Tories opposed it. Sure every government has its ideology, its just that some ideologies are more attuned to benefitting the greater good of society than others.

 

[Mammoth]

Money doesn't grow on trees and too many people and all of our Governments over the past 65 years have been living beyond their means for far too long. The Welfare State was set up on the never never after the second world war when this country was bust, and the reckoning has now arrived. Its been just like putting everything on a credit card bill and only paying off the minimum amount month after month year after year. Sooner or later we have to pay the bill or default. If this country defaults probably no one will get a public sector or state pension because there will be no money to pay them.

People can argue as much as they like about who has caused this debt. Its been Tory and Labour Goverments, Public and Private sector bosses who have run their Departments and businesses badly and inefficiently, and businesses and workers who have borrowed money that they cannot afford to pay back. Very few people have been living in the real world in this country during the last 65 years.

Sadly many public and private sector workers are now going to have to work 'til they drop. Anyone with an unrealistic outlook is going to struggle to get a job in the forseeable future if they are not currently in work, or are about to lose their jobs irrespective of whether they are in the public or private sector. Glen Murrey take note.

at last some common sense!

 

[The Antikythera Mechanism]

I used to know an architect for Lewes District Council, who admitted, at the age of 35, that he would stay in his job until he reached pensionable age because;

(1) Because he had a very good pension to look forward to.
(2) He had a cushy number compared to private practice.
(3) He could do private jobs during working hours.

Couldn't fault his reasoning as he was clearly not ambitious.

Architects in private practice are suffering badly and would gladly take any glimmer of job security as a bonus, so it does rankle, somehat, when you read about hard done by civil servants.