Ched Evans

[glasfryn]

This sort of thing has been going on for thousands of years in some shape of form. The rich and famous have party organisers and if it is girls, boys, women or men needed for an event, the people suppliers will oblige.

this of coarse does not only apply to footballers (the question was rhetorical)

 

[Jolene81]

Off their own BATS. Not backs. Please stop getting this wrong.

 

[Nibble]

This is the perfect example of just deny everything and hope it goes away. Even when he is convicted and sentenced to prison people think he's innocent because he says so.

 

[Jolene81]

This is the perfect example of just deny everything and hope it goes away. Even when he is convicted and sentenced to prison people think he's innocent because he says so.

Woman not women. Seeing as you insist on being so pedantic

 

[Bold Seagull]

While the circumstances were different, it certainly seems like a strange one. I don't know how can she have been too drunk to give consent to one person, but not to give it to another.

Which is why McDonald can probably consider himself a very lucky boy.

 

[Mellotron]

Which is actually one of the significant factors in the evidence. She didn't make a statement to police looking to secure a conviction. There is no motivation for her to cover that up if she remembered and was looking for some kind of payout or revenge. The police uncovered the rape themselves. Pretty damning if you ask me.

You could look at it both ways. If you thought even for a SECOND that you might have raped someone, would you just wander over to the nearest police station?

 

[Steve.S]

Can not see the point in going round in circles on this thread on whether people think he is guilty or not guilty. Unless he gets his conviction overturned, he will not be joining any club. Fans, non fans and sponsors will not allow it. At present he has been found guilty and people will not accept him at their football club.

 

[Bold Seagull]

You could look at it both ways. If you thought even for a SECOND that you might have raped someone, would you just wander over to the nearest police station?

Sorry, I don't understand the point you're making?

 

[Nibble]

Woman not women. Seeing as you insist on being so pedantic

Try and be more observant.

 

[glasfryn]

Can not see the point in going round in circles on this thread on whether people think he is guilty or not guilty. Unless he gets his conviction overturned, he will not be joining any club. Fans, non fans and sponsors will not allow it. At present he has been found guilty and people will not accept him at their football club.

pity he was not playing for a bigger club maybe MU he might just have been OK

 

[Jolene81]

Try and be more observant.

 

[symyjym]

this of coarse does not only apply to footballers (the question was rhetorical)

indeed

 

[Thunder Bolt]

And? Her character is not on trial. His actions are. Nobody has pretended she's a beacon of righteousness. Its the Evans mob, that have perpetuated the myth that people have done so.

You are, though.



I'm not going to speak for anyone else, but my outrage at people acting as apologists for rape, is far from 'faux'.

Comments like the one earlier about her 'not being dragged down an alley' and yours about her character, are extremely distasteful to many, in the context of this debate.

Where have I questioned her character? I have questioned her actions.

 

[Nibble]

It's for your own growth.

 

[severnside gull]

Unfortunately I might be a bit too arrogant for that in this instance
My point is that in both cases, the crime is denied. Let's not talk about Evan's case for a second, let's imagine a similar case - and imagine that new phone video evidence was found that showed both parties were fully consensual, and the verdict was over-turned. Would you still expect the accused to show remorse?

I think I answered that in a response to someone earlier. If Evans, without admitting guilt, were to say "I have my understanding of what happened and they (the victim and the court) have theirs, but I regret that my actions caused suffering or hurt which was not my intention" then in all likelihood he wouldn't be in the position he now finds himself. By the nature of how societies work, most people want to see good rather than bad and are happy if the waters can be smoothed. An element of contrition can enable that. Arrogance and aggression markedly don't.
In my youth I can certainly recall occasions when it might have been questionable whether my assertiveness overwhelmed the potential reluctance of sexual partners. I don't recall ever ignoring a clearly stated "no" but I am sure that had I been more sensitive I would have noted signs that really should not have been ignored. I didn't necessarily always ask for my partner's approval but rather assumed their acquiescence.
I could hide behind them being different times when different views and sometimes standards applied. I could hide behind callow youth and lustful urges. I was simply insensitive.
We do now have a different standard, an altered morality, and an improved education in such matters for both sexes.

Failing all of that, blame "bantz", the power of celebrity, and young men who are not taught how to deal with it.

 

[drew]

How exactly do I provide a link to something that hasn't happened? I would suggest it is up to you to provide something where he does.

You're right, though whether they were his supporters or not, they were doing it in his name and I don't think it would have hurt him to distance himself from it.

There was, he clearly exacerbated it with his website though.

I'm out of this one again now, I've said my piece. Personally I think it would be better for everyone, Evans included, if he had delayed his football comeback until the full legal process had taken its course. No one wants an unrepentant convicted rapist (which in the eyes of the law he indisputably is) playing for their club. Clearly I understand the reasons that he can't show remorse. We have a catch 22.

Excuse me but you were the one who stated he had refused to condemn anyone. I asked for a link because as far as I am aware, there is no evidence that he has refused to condemn them. In your opinion he exacerbated but in his, he is pursuing his innocence. He girlfriend's dad is apparently paying for it so why don't you direct your vitriol at him. Furthermore, if you are innocent of a crime then wouldn't you pursue any avenue possible? Would you suggest that the Birmingham six or Guildford 4 should have kept their cases out of the press?

However, what we do agree on is your last paragraph.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Yet 12 people found McDonald 'not guilty' with the same Evidence. Plenty of ro for Human error.
Also Jury's are picked on the basis of the right people for the defence & prosecution are they not?

Not the same evidence, no. The lead up to the events in the hotel room were very different for the two defendants.

The circumstances were different. She met McDonald in the street, and agreed to go to a hotel with him. A porter heard them having sex (I would imagine what he heard was relevant, but I don't know what he heard, other than it was nothing to worry about).

While the circumstances were different, it certainly seems like a strange one. I don't know how can she have been too drunk to give consent to one person, but not to give it to another.

You've answered yourself Trig. McDonald was not acquitted because she wasn't 'too drunk to give consent' to him. It was because the jury did not agree beyond reasonable doubt, that McDonald couldn't reasonably have assumed consent from her actions (i.e. going back to the hotel with him). Evans had no such defence.

In the case of McDonald his defence was that it was reasonable for him to assume consent, based on the fact that he had been with her earlier in the evening and her actions during that period - the jury obviously accepted this defence, hence the not guilty verdict. Evans however only met the girl whilst she was having sex with McDonald in the hotel room.

Exactly.

 

[symyjym]

Excuse me but you were the one who stated he had refused to condemn anyone. I asked for a link because as far as I am aware, there is no evidence that he has refused to condemn them. In your opinion he exacerbated but in his, he is pursuing his innocence. He girlfriend's dad is apparently paying for it so why don't you direct your vitriol at him. Furthermore, if you are innocent of a crime then wouldn't you pursue any avenue possible? Would you suggest that the Birmingham six or Guildford 4 should have kept their cases out of the press?

However, what we do agree on is your last paragraph.

That doesn't make sense unless he was asked to condemn them

 

[Triggaaar]

If Evans, without admitting guilt, were to say "I have my understanding of what happened and they (the victim and the court) have theirs, but I regret that my actions caused suffering or hurt which was not my intention" then in all likelihood he wouldn't be in the position he now finds himself.

When the legal case finishes, he could well say that if he loses. I don't know if he's been advised not to say it now, while the legal case is ongoing. If it were possible for him to say that now, you'd think his lawyers would have told him to say it.

In my youth I can certainly recall occasions when it might have been questionable whether my assertiveness overwhelmed the potential reluctance of sexual partners. I don't recall ever ignoring a clearly stated "no" but I am sure that had I been more sensitive I would have noted signs that really should not have been ignored. I didn't necessarily always ask for my partner's approval but rather assumed their acquiescence.
I could hide behind them being different times when different views and sometimes standards applied. I could hide behind callow youth and lustful urges. I was simply insensitive.
We do now have a different standard, an altered morality, and an improved education in such matters for both sexes.

Had your actions been today, and put before a court, do you think a jury would consider you raped someone? If not, then you don't need to hide behind anything. If so - well I don't need to say anything.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Just when you thought this thread couldn't get any darker….