Ched Evans

[rouseytastic]

There is no suggestion she lied. She did not accuse anyone of anything, she said she couldn't remember.

So with that in mind this alleged 'victim' was prepared to put a man through a trial, time in prison and the loss of his career over something that may or may not have happened that she couldn't remember because she was smashed......
Again, who's the 'victim'?!

 

[ManOfSussex]

Plenty of people don't know who he is.

I know of at least 5 or 6 who have never heard of him.

Well, there's half an impartial jury already then. I'm sure all will be fine in court and there will be plenty of others who haven't read things about it, such as David Walsh's detailed article in The Sunday Times a couple of years back.

 

[rouseytastic]

What a strange view to take. Arguably there are two victims - depending on whether or not he is found guilty on a re-trial. Funnily enough I was talking about the girl who was until about half an hour ago a confirmed rape victim.

Nothing strange in it at all. And if found not guilty there is only one victim. And it's not the anonymous young lady

 

[Triggaaar]

His lawyers may beg to differ.

If jurors can be found that don't know about the case, I'm not sure what it's got to do with his lawyers. Besides, I'd think Evans will want a retrial, in order to clear his name. Although if he does know he's innocent, I can understand if he's lost faith with the justice system.

 

[nwgull]

There is no suggestion she lied. She did not accuse anyone of anything, she said she couldn't remember.

Not strictly true. The new evidence was apparently based on statements (under oath I assume) from people that knew her or were familiar with her. If it turns out that these new witness statements suggest that she did in fact remember the events of that night - eg a conversation or text message sent in the days after it - then saying that she couldn't remember would be perjury.

From looking at a few commentators on Twitter, it seems that the retrial could have been ordered for Evans benefit in that his name can be cleared as fully as possible. So I take back what I said about the CPS.

 

[Triggaaar]

So with that in mind this alleged 'victim' was prepared to put a man through a trial, time in prison and the loss of his career over something that may or may not have happened

No! She did not put him through trial, the crown prosecution did. I have never believed the correct verdict was given, but that's not the girl's fault.

 

[Da Man Clay]

Nothing strange in it at all. And if found not guilty there is only one victim. And it's not the anonymous young lady

Yes there is. Being found not guilty is not the same as something not happening. She hasn't been proved to be lying in anyway.

 

[ManOfSussex]

If jurors can be found that don't know about the case, I'm not sure what it's got to do with his lawyers. Besides, I'd think Evans will want a retrial, in order to clear his name. Although if he does know he's innocent, I can understand if he's lost faith with the justice system.

Maybe. I just think it's a big 'if' about an impartial jury.

If he was to be found not-guilty, I wonder if he'd be given compensation for his time served.

 

[Triggaaar]

Nothing strange in it at all. And if found not guilty there is only one victim. And it's not the anonymous young lady

I don't think you're in a position to make these statements. Even when a man is found not guilty, that doesn't mean there was no rape, it just means there's not enough evidence to convict beyond reasonable doubt. It would still be possible she was a victim.

Not strictly true. The new evidence was apparently based on statements (under oath I assume) from people that knew her or were familiar with her. If it turns out ...

One thing at a time, we don't seem to know what the new evidence was yet. Also, if there's evidence that she lied, I'm surprised that the verdict wasn't overturned, rather than a re-trial being ordered.

From looking at a few commentators on Twitter, it seems that the retrial could have been ordered for Evans benefit in that his name can be cleared as fully as possible. So I take back what I said about the CPS.

You know more about this than me, I haven't seen twitter. But surely just overturning the verdict would do the job?

 

[Triggaaar]

If he was to be found not-guilty, I wonder if he'd be given compensation for his time served.

What about loss of earnings!

 

[rouseytastic]

I don't think you're in a position to make these statements. Even when a man is found not guilty, that doesn't mean there was no rape, it just means there's not enough evidence to convict beyond reasonable doubt. It would still be possible she was a victim.

So even if he is found not guilty of rape there will still be people who consider her the victim......what hope the modern man! Last one to leave, turn out the lights!!

 

[sparkie]

His lawyers may beg to differ.

In half an hour I could put together a jury that have never heard of him and don't follow 'celebrity' scandal.

It really isn't that difficult.

 

[ManOfSussex]

In half an hour I could put together a jury that have never heard of him and don't follow 'celebrity' scandal.

It really isn't that difficult.

Fair enough. I hope our court system can do likewise.

 

[Triggaaar]

So even if he is found not guilty of rape there will still be people who consider her the victim

No, not THE victim. Possibly A victim, the case could have 2 of them.

In a murder trial, if the defendant is found not guilty, do you think that means there was no victim? Of course not, the person who was murdered is still the victim.
In a rape case, there will often be a victim without anyone being found guilty.

This case is quite different though, to my knowledge the girl never claimed she was raped, so it is possible (but not guaranteed) she is not a victim.

 

[rouseytastic]

No, not THE victim. Possibly A victim, the case could have 2 of them.

In a murder trial, if the defendant is found not guilty, do you think that means there was no victim? Of course not, the person who was murdered is still the victim.
In a rape case, there will often be a victim without anyone being found guilty.

This case is quite different though, to my knowledge the girl never claimed she was raped, so it is possible (but not guaranteed) she is not a victim.

Yes, this case is wildly different to a murder trial!

so it is possible (but not guaranteed) she is not a victim

If this girl was raped, she is a victim of rape.

If she is found to have had consensual sex she is not a victim. If it is proved she new she hadn't been raped she is not a victim.

If Evans is found not guilty of rape then he is a victim, which would mean she wasn't raped and, again, is not a victim!

 

[carlzeiss]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...pe-conviction-and-faces-retrial-a6993966.html

 

[Da Man Clay]

If Evans is found not guilty of rape then he is a victim, which would mean she wasn't raped and, again, is not a victim!

Not it doesn't. Just means it couldn't evidentially be proven beyond all reasonable doubt she was raped. Totally different test.

Out of curiosity - how about all the rape reports that don't get to trial? Is anyone alleging rape where offenders don't get found guilty at court not rape victims?

 

[Sheebo]

And this is why I only ever say "he was convicted for rape" and not "he IS a rapist". If I don't know for sure in my OWN mind, no matter what a jury says, I can't call someone a certain tag for fear of this exact situation.

Back to innocent until proven again.

Same. This case was always in a very grey area. The fact his mate got off when he did the same thing before always seemed a bit odd. The Evans website also threw in some compelling evidence although I acknowledge it was done by his team and probably rather one sided. Will be interesting to see what happens with the re-trial. It's pretty clear that Evans himself is convinced of his innocence, although that doesn't necessarily mean he's innocent of course.

 

[Sheebo]

So who is 'the victim' that you mention. IF Evans is innocent and she has lied and made the whole thing up he is the victim. And I think he would be more than happy to 'go through it all again' to prove it

I think this could be a case of she thinks he's guilty as she can't remember what happened due to alcohol. He thinks he's innocent as she seemed to consent. Stalemate. Just a guess as can't remember all the details of the case.

 

[Triggaaar]

so it is possible (but not guaranteed) she is not a victim

If this girl was raped, she is a victim of rape.

If she is found to have had consensual sex she is not a victim. If it is proved she new she hadn't been raped she is not a victim.

Yes, exactly, but that's not what you said. You said:
"If Evans is found not guilty of rape then he is a victim, which would mean she wasn't raped and, again, is not a victim!"
"And if found not guilty there is only one victim. And it's not the anonymous young lady"

That is wrong, as it's possible that she is a victim, even if he is found not guilty.

If Evans is found not guilty of rape then he is a victim, which would mean she wasn't raped and, again, is not a victim!

No! It would mean there is not proof beyond reasonable doubt that she was raped, it wouldn't actually mean she wasn't.