[Politics] Brexit

[Randy McNob]

No there isn’t, politicians lie all the time.

Is there going to be an economic cost of Brexit in terms of higher prices, diluted consumer and worker rights, less freedom of movement and weaker security links and protocols?...undoubtedly.

But those issues weren’t important to the Brexit voters so bashing them over the head about them gets you nowhere.


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They would have been important to some Brexit voters, some wanted a soft brexit, staying in the CU + SM, or a norway deal.

What you have shown is the referendum wasn't democratic, only the brextremists will argue that

 

[nicko31]

They would have been important to some Brexit voters, some wanted a soft brexit, staying in the CU + SM, or a norway deal.

What you have shown is the referendum wasn't democratic, only the brextremists will argue that

52 / 48, two countries in favour, two countries against, votes for Commonwealth Citizens, no votes for EU Citizens,

Not to mention the absence of a super majority, it was never going to end well....

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

They would have been important to some Brexit voters, some wanted a soft brexit, staying in the CU + SM, or a norway deal.

What you have shown is the referendum wasn't democratic, only the brextremists will argue that

The type of Brexit chosen was a terrible wasted opportunity where we could have had our cake ( leave the EU ) and eaten it ( remain in the EEA ).

The best of both worlds disgracefully ditched by the fundamentalist Brexit extremists - but only after the referendum.

 

[wardy wonder land]

Why would Scotland argue for independence because we don't support them financially? That would be like a small boy deciding to leave home because mum and dad refuse to upgrade his playstation and give him more pocket money. I think the correct answer would be 'off you go, then; see you in ten minutes'.

the best way for the scotch to get indepnedance would to give the vote to the whole of the UK - basically have had enough of the ongoing moaning about how bad the English are -

imgine the melt down if we voted for them to leave - they would reject it as they would what thier "overlording coloinals" to decide thier fate for them !

 

[GrizzlingGammon]

They have certainly been sovereignty based in the last few months as it's become clearer what Brexit would be. I think if you look a little further back on this thread you will find plenty of Too Much Immigration, New Trade Opportunities, Paying too much to the EU for what we get, Getting our fish back, etc posts.

There's quite a number of small businessmen all over the news at the moment who voted Brexit because they thought (or were told) that the EU put too much red tape around exports, and now think a little differently.

There were certainly some who thought it was about sovereignty, but I would suggest that number was relatively small 5 years ago, when the decision was made.

When I first signed up on here, one of the points that did get mentioned was the Common Agricultural Policy. When asked what they didn't like, the common response was 'the butter mountain' or 'the milk lake'.

Pointing out that the EU changed how CAP worked in relation to these dairy products and the lake and mountain had not been in existence since c.2011, 5 years prior to the vote, these people either went quiet or came back with a lot of jibberish about an unrelated topic.

 

[Fitzcarraldo]

So here is why it will happen:
1. The arguments used by the Better Together campaign are all but destroyed - if it was so true why didn’t we stay in the EU
2. Our Prime Minister will get destroyed when he backs the stay campaign, remember his better to invest in Croydon than Scotland articles
3. No credible Scottish Labour Party to keep the left side of politics argument
4. Most of us didn’t want to leave EU
5. I’ve rarely the negative anti-eastern European talk about people in Scotland than you do in England (are we more tolerant?)
6.Nicola Sturgoen is a better leader Wee Alec, I don’t like her myself but the way she has handled COVID has really embarrassed Westminster. At the end of the day if she does something, the you know we are doing the same in 2 days time
7. Unfortunately the Current Tory’s appear more elitist and less connected to normal people than at anytime in history, this looks worse the further you are aware of them

Whilst I agree with most of the above, I disagree that independence will happen anytime soon. Scottish Nationalists must dearly wish they were able to have the independence referendum now as opposed to in 2014. I can't see any other outcome than independence if it was held now. As you have said, the economic arguments used last time are completely undermined. You also have to wonder where would the enthusiasm for the union come from? Who would be the advocates?

The thing that will hold it together though is the UK government just saying no to a referendum as one was held recently. Why risk it? Who would want to be the Prime Minister that lost the union?

 

[WATFORD zero]

Playing Devils advocate, we make some good cars in this country, Henrys are the best vacuum cleaner in the world (your over engineered Dyson's are made in SIngapore) and I still managed to get bananas at the weekend for the same price as they've been for six months.

Well I hope you stacked up on those bananas

Brexit: £100,000 of tariffs slapped on Fairtrade bananas from Africa threatening farmers with ruin

At least £100,000 of tariffs have been slapped on Fairtrade bananas from Africa because of Brexit, prompting mounting anger that farmers face ruin. Ministers are under pressure to explain why the levies are being charged, despite an announcement that a last-gasp deal was struck between the UK and Ghana on New Year’s Eve.

Both banana exporters in the developing country and UK shipping firms are losing money on deliveries – £20,000 a week, says one company – while the crisis continues. Before Christmas, ministers rejected calls for transitional measures to prevent tariffs, as talks with Ghana on a “rollover” of an existing EU trade agreement went down to the wire.


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-tariffs-bananas-africa-farmers-b1791225.html

 

[A1X]

When I first signed up on here, one of the points that did get mentioned was the Common Agricultural Policy. When asked what they didn't like, the common response was 'the butter mountain' or 'the milk lake'.

Pointing out that the EU changed how CAP worked in relation to these dairy products and the lake and mountain had not been in existence since c.2011, 5 years prior to the vote, these people either went quiet or came back with a lot of jibberish about an unrelated topic.

It's a similar trope across many things, not just Brexit-related but otherwise. People hear something that resonates with them and parrot it as gospel. "Bendy bananas" was another one based on an EU-rule which was abandoned quite quickly after it was implemented because it was so seriously flawed back in the 1990s, but was still somehow a thing in 2016. Outside of Brexit, it's amazing how many people try to justify slashing the aid budget because "we send aid to India and they have a space programme", which ignores the fact we haven't sent any financial aid to India since 2011. It's basically radicalisation at this point.

 

[Baker lite]

Whilst I agree with most of the above, I disagree that independence will happen anytime soon. Scottish Nationalists must dearly wish they were able to have the independence referendum now as opposed to in 2014. I can't see any other outcome than independence if it was held now. As you have said, the economic arguments used last time are completely undermined. You also have to wonder where would the enthusiasm for the union come from? Who would be the advocates?

The thing that will hold it together though is the UK government just saying no to a referendum as one was held recently. Why risk it? Who would want to be the Prime Minister that lost the union?

This.


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[Neville's Breakfast]

the best way for the scotch to get indepnedance would to give the vote to the whole of the UK - basically have had enough of the ongoing moaning about how bad the English are -

imgine the melt down if we voted for them to leave - they would reject it as they would what thier "overlording coloinals" to decide thier fate for them !

Agreed, it is an odd debate. I suspect the English would vote them out simply because of the Barnett formula. Any referendum campaign would expose the extremely favorable public spending advantage enjoyed by Scotland. It would also make sense to make a Shetland Islands referendum a condition of a Scottish one and their leaders have voted overwhelmingly in favor of exploring this option.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/news...o-explore-independence-from-scotland-12068826

 

[JC Footy Genius]

It seems that the poster you are agreeing with has changed their mind and now disagrees with you



I shouldn't worry, I've found it happens a lot on this thread

No one can surpass someone who thought Brexit wouldn't happen, then predicted BRINO, then said no deal couldn't happen, then said he wanted a no deal outcome and now spends all his time complaining about the consequences of the Trade deal when the consequences of the no deal he preferred would have been more disruptive [emoji106]

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[nicko31]

The type of Brexit chosen was a terrible wasted opportunity where we could have had our cake ( leave the EU ) and eaten it ( remain in the EEA ).

The best of both worlds disgracefully ditched by the fundamentalist Brexit extremists - but only after the referendum.

EEA would never fly, not compliant with narrow English navists

It gives young people the right to live, work and study overseas, maybe one day they will reclaim their country. Brexiters are dying off fast...

 

[WATFORD zero]

No one can surpass someone who thought Brexit wouldn't happen, then predicted BRINO, then said no deal couldn't happen, then said he wanted a no deal outcome and now spends all his time complaining about the consequences of the Trade deal when the consequences of the no deal he preferred would have been more disruptive [emoji106]

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If you are trying to claim someone said something really really stupid, simply quote where they said it, rather than making up claims as to what you think they might have said (mangling the English language in the process )

Yes Canada negotiated a deal which focused on their trade priorities as we will, which will place financial services front and center of negotiations. I agree we are unlikely to have exactly the same access as now or have as much input on future regulations but any potential loss here could be offset by having the freedom to exploit new market opportunities with less regulation and cost.

So much more effective, don't you think

I know why you didn't post this as POTG? but what is the trigger that makes you switch accounts ?

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

EEA would never fly, not compliant with narrow English navists

It gives young people the right to live, work and study overseas, maybe one day they will reclaim their country. Brexiters are dying off fast...

Of course it would fly.

52% of ~66% voted for Brexit.

"Nobody is even talking about leaving the Single Market".


Surely not all of the 52% of ~66% are against the EEA ?

Fast queue at the euro airports every holiday. The right to retire anywhere in the EU without extra hassle. UK union with a fighting chance of being preserved. Extra prosperity and opportunities over the bad deal agreed. Outside the EU. Referendum Mandate fulfilled.

Compromises needed just like any trade deal, just like Johnson's bad deal.


*EEA is better than a bad deal*. What a slogan.

 

[WATFORD zero]

So who's been posting on this thread today ?

Is It POTG?/JC Footy Genius - check
Pretty pink fairy - check
Baker Lite/Two Profs - check

Any hope of mature discussion gone and into the Bear Pit it goes

 

[JC Footy Genius]

If you are trying to claim someone said something really really stupid, simply quote where they said it, rather than making up claims as to what you think they might have said (mangling the English language in the process )



So much more effective, don't you think [emoji38]ol:

I know why you didn't post this as POTG? but what is the trigger that makes you switch accounts ?

No need to claim anything, your body of work speaks for itself. Usually, a dubious blend of stupidity and dishonesty ...

All that searching and you couldn't find any examples of me making contradictory statements then [emoji106]

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[vegster]

It's a similar trope across many things, not just Brexit-related but otherwise. People hear something that resonates with them and parrot it as gospel. "Bendy bananas" was another one based on an EU-rule which was abandoned quite quickly after it was implemented because it was so seriously flawed back in the 1990s, but was still somehow a thing in 2016. Outside of Brexit, it's amazing how many people try to justify slashing the aid budget because "we send aid to India and they have a space programme", which ignores the fact we haven't sent any financial aid to India since 2011. It's basically radicalisation at this point.

The same people hit apoplexy when there are appeals to genuinely " Look after our Own First " in the form of extending the free school meals programme or continuing the temporary uplift of Universal Credit to the tune of £20 a week. And remember the outcry when UNICEF said they were going to send food support to deserving cases in the UK !

The problem seems to be that too many people with axes to grind nowadays get a global platform to keep airing their views despite their views being utterly ridiculous, stupid or damaging. It can be seen even on here, for instance, what sort of stupidity is the comment and thread, " Defund the BBC " ? There genuinely needs to be some kind of fightback of common sense across a multitude of issues that are damaging society nationally and internationally.

 

[WATFORD zero]

No need to claim anything, your body of work speaks for itself. Usually, a dubious blend of stupidity and dishonesty ...

All that searching and you couldn't find any examples of me making contradictory statements then [emoji106]

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To be honest I thought that you stating that 'placing financial services front and center of negotiations' for a Brexit deal works better as a one-liner, no contradictory statement required

Which reminds me, you didn't answer what the trigger is that gets you to switch to your funny one-liner POTG? account ?

 

[Chicken Run]

So who's been posting on this thread today ?

Is It POTG?/JC Footy Genius - check
Pretty pink fairy - check
Baker Lite/Two Profs - check

Any hope of mature discussion gone and into the Bear Pit it goes

WATFORD zealot/Lever check [emoji6]


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[Lincoln Imp]

Must say I'm inclined to agree with you.

The arguments for remain were economic based.

The arguments for Brexit were sovereignty based.

People had a choice and made it.

In the 1975 referendum the biggest issue (it dominated everything else according to the Daily Telegraph) was the concept of shared sovereignty. In reality, every country in the world shares its sovereign power in one way or another, but joining the EC put the issue under a formal spotlight. It was a nuanced debate about a far-from-clearcut subject. And on the basis of that debate the people came to a conclusion.

How different it was in 2016. Very little nuance. Just binary shouting. Take Back Control. Let's Get our Country Back. What's Ours is Ours. Cummings was clear in his bitter arguments with factions in the Conservative Party before the referendum. They wanted to go with Global Britain. He knew that wouldn't resonate with the man on the bus. The man on the bus wanted short, simple, aggressive and nationalist slogans and almost every initiative in the Leave campaign flowed from that basic belief, all the way down to the £350m bus claim (which Cummings agrees wasn't true but probably won them the referendum).

This wasn't a mature discussion and considered conclusion about the nature of national sovereignty. It was a low rent heist of a noble principle.