[Politics] Brexit

[Garry Nelson's teacher]

In the 1975 referendum the biggest issue (it dominated everything else according to the Daily Telegraph) was the concept of shared sovereignty. In reality, every country in the world shares its sovereign power in one way or another, but joining the EC put the issue under a formal spotlight. It was a nuanced debate about a far-from-clearcut subject. And on the basis of that debate the people came to a conclusion.

How different it was in 2016. Very little nuance. Just binary shouting. Take Back Control. Let's Get our Country Back. What's Ours is Ours. Cummings was clear in his bitter arguments with factions in the Conservative Party before the referendum. They wanted to go with Global Britain. He knew that wouldn't resonate with the man on the bus. The man on the bus wanted short, simple, aggressive and nationalist slogans and almost every initiative in the Leave campaign flowed from that basic belief, all the way down to the £350m bus claim (which Cummings agrees wasn't true but probably won them the referendum).

This wasn't a mature discussion and considered conclusion about the nature of national sovereignty. It was a low rent heist of a noble principle.

One of the small ironies of history is that one of the themes of the 1975 Referendum was that we would be turning our back on the Commonwealth if we joined (or stayed in) the EEC. Given that our relationships with the C'wealth countries impinged on their sovereignty even more than the EU impinges on ours, this rather clouds the issue of us bleating on and on about this. In short, our imperial past (noble as it could arguably be) has impinged on more countries' sovereignty than just about anyone, including the EU.
In short, we only seem to worry about sovereignty when it suits us?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Having worked in schools for the last 26 years, I can attest that average intelligence is a pretty low starting point. It is easy to forget this if you are in the company of professionals, university students or younger and streamed at school. Most people in my experience do not want to think, but would rather be told. The kind of manipulation expressed in the Brexit vote is a case in point and I say this as someone who wanted Brexit but for long-established reasons most of which were not the main campaign points which were emphasised for an emotional and fearful response.

With reflection I dislike the Brexit campaign the more I think about it, but the tragedy for those wishing to remain is that instead of promoting the EU positively, they were reactive and tried to counterbalance the other side - which back-fired spectacularly.

Indeed.

But I do sometimes wonder whether, given a free vote and a promise of sunny uplands, with absolutely no effort required by ourselves to make the change, and no risks mentioned, we would vote 'remain' or 'leave' in an in-out referndum on our marriages. Make a case for Remain that doesn't sound either a bit wishy washy ('think of the companionship and the kids') or Project Fear, I dare you.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

When you entertain us with such patronising generalisations, I can't help but picture you stroking a wispy beard whilst fiddling at your leather elbow pads on your corduroy jacket.

You got a thumbs-up from Das Reich for that.

Was it nice?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

So who's been posting on this thread today ?

Is It POTG?/JC Footy Genius - check
Pretty pink fairy - check
Baker Lite/Two Profs - check

Any hope of mature discussion gone and into the Bear Pit it goes

I may have contributed to their frenzy

I was going to ask, why no mouldy boots among the list of fools, but then remembered he's just been invited to spend more time with his family for making a disgusting post.

 

[Randy McNob]

One of the small ironies of history is that one of the themes of the 1975 Referendum was that we would be turning our back on the Commonwealth if we joined (or stayed in) the EEC. Given that our relationships with the C'wealth countries impinged on their sovereignty even more than the EU impinges on ours, this rather clouds the issue of us bleating on and on about this. In short, our imperial past (noble as it could arguably be) has impinged on more countries' sovereignty than just about anyone, including the EU.
In short, we only seem to worry about sovereignty when it suits us?

don't forget, back in the early 70's we would have manufactured all our own goods, we still had a car industry, clothes and all our consumer goods would have been mostly made here, energy and raw materials would still be from British origin, as with most other countries, so all countries would have had their own true soveriegnty, now in a globalised economy we all realise that isn't important anymore (now eveyone's dropped their weapons), todays it's about how we compare economies. Withdrawing from a trading block and talking about soveriegnty is really harking back to a bygone age and completely meaningless in a modern global economy

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Talking of sovereignty, in Westminster, Parliament is sovereign. So why won't Jacob Rees-Mogg allow scrutiny of the Brexit deal? What is the government trying to hide?
They have an 80 seat majority so any actions would soon be voted down.

 

[nicko31]

Whilst I agree with most of the above, I disagree that independence will happen anytime soon. Scottish Nationalists must dearly wish they were able to have the independence referendum now as opposed to in 2014. I can't see any other outcome than independence if it was held now. As you have said, the economic arguments used last time are completely undermined. You also have to wonder where would the enthusiasm for the union come from? Who would be the advocates?

The thing that will hold it together though is the UK government just saying no to a referendum as one was held recently. Why risk it? Who would want to be the Prime Minister that lost the union?

Johnson can do that but the problem he and his government have created isn't going away. Nothing good ever comes out of nationalism, nobody wins...

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/en...ons-sturgeon-says_uk_600d687cc5b6a0d83a1c2b2b

Scotland will hold a referendum on Scottish independence if the SNP wins the Holyrood elections, regardless of whether Boris Johnson agrees to a new vote.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

Indeed.

But I do sometimes wonder whether, given a free vote and a promise of sunny uplands, with absolutely no effort required by ourselves to make the change, and no risks mentioned, we would vote 'remain' or 'leave' in an in-out referndum on our marriages. Make a case for Remain that doesn't sound either a bit wishy washy ('think of the companionship and the kids') or Project Fear, I dare you.

The trouble with the marriage analogy for Remain is that the chance for something that appears to be new and exciting is often the driving point for a breakup. I remember going to a lecture by Rob Parsons from Care for the Family, he said that once things have settled down in a new relationship, one is still putting the bins out on a Monday morning. The point struck home. Not that I have ever wished to vote leave in my marriage, no sir!

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

Johnson can do that but the problem he and his government have created isn't going away. Nothing good ever comes out of nationalism, nobody wins...

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/en...ons-sturgeon-says_uk_600d687cc5b6a0d83a1c2b2b

Scotland will hold a referendum on Scottish independence if the SNP wins the Holyrood elections, regardless of whether Boris Johnson agrees to a new vote.

Maybe the SNP will win. There you go there's a winner. How do you know nothing good will come from it? If one assumes the word nationalism to be expressed with a lower case n it can be a different force in politics just as conservative with a small c is a different political manifestation than Conservative.

Do you disagree with the right to self-determination for the Scots?

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

You got a thumbs-up from Das Reich for that.

Was it nice?

To be fair the image was amusing.

 

[Garry Nelson's teacher]

don't forget, back in the early 70's we would have manufactured all our own goods, we still had a car industry, clothes and all our consumer goods would have been mostly made here, energy and raw materials would still be from British origin, as with most other countries, so all countries would have had their own true soveriegnty, now in a globalised economy we all realise that isn't important anymore (now eveyone's dropped their weapons), todays it's about how we compare economies. Withdrawing from a trading block and talking about soveriegnty is really harking back to a bygone age and completely meaningless in a modern global economy

The writing was already on the wall for the UK economy in the bygone days of the 70s. Membership of the EEC arrested the decline. Anyone who looks back on the 70s as some sort of Golden Age probably wasn't there. I remember when we were characterised (not without reason) as 'the sick man of Europe' and I have horrible feeling that the wheel might be turning full circle.

 

[nicko31]

Maybe the SNP will win. There you go there's a winner. How do you know nothing good will come from it? If one assumes the word nationalism to be expressed with a lower case n it can be a different force in politics just as conservative with a small c is a different political manifestation than Conservative.

Do you disagree with the right to self-determination for the Scots?

I think the SNP would win and the UK will would be thrown into another round of political chaos. The fracture of the UK would cause us to lose yet more relevance in the wider world.

I've never been keen on giving them the right for self determination. But now we have a real problem with NI having an inequitable advantage over the other countries in the UK, the question is why can't Scotland be the same and argument will be tested in the courts. They didn't vote for Brexit, were betrayed after the 2014 vote and have been completely excluded with the Brexit whole process

I have no doubt that many English couldn't give a shit about NI, but Johnson's English centric view never thought through the repercussions of putting a Customs border in the Irish sea. The single market was a gift and sorted the Irish problem and gave us 20 years of peace

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

I think the SNP would win and the UK will would be thrown into another round of political chaos. The fracture of the UK would cause us to lose yet more relevance in the wider world.

I've never been keen on giving them the right for self determination. But now we have a real problem with NI having an inequitable advantage over the other countries in the UK, the question is why can't Scotland be the same and argument will be tested in the courts. They didn't vote for Brexit, were betrayed after the 2014 vote and have been completely excluded with the Brexit whole process

I have no doubt that many English couldn't give a shit about NI, but Johnson's English centric view never thought through the repercussions of putting a Customs border in the Irish sea. The single market was a gift and sorted the Irish problem and gave us 20 years of peace

You seem to harbour contradictory views. One the one hand you are not keen for a country's people to have self determination but on the other you complain bitterly that the said country was outvoted by the larger mass' votes. You cant have it both ways. Scotland should just suck it up by your preference for its dependence upon the rest of the UK.

If Brexit only occurred because the English wanted it (it was also the choice of the Welsh) then by a similar token, votes in the past where Scotland, in spite of its small populace, has been the kingmaker sending Labour MP's to Westminster, should have been decried and argued about in England.

Why do you want the UK to have relevance in the wider world? This is unclear as you very often make clear your feelings regarding the voters in the UK and their leaders. We either have something of value or we don't.

 

[vegster]

Talk that Johnson is going to Scotland on an " All out bid to save the United Kingdom" and launch a " Charm Offensive" to woo the Scots.. What could possibly go wrong? [emoji1787][emoji6]

 

[nicko31]

You seem to harbour contradictory views. One the one hand you are not keen for a country's people to have self determination but on the other you complain bitterly that the said country was outvoted by the larger mass' votes. You cant have it both ways. Scotland should just suck it up by your preference for its dependence upon the rest of the UK.

If Brexit only occurred because the English wanted it (it was also the choice of the Welsh) then by a similar token, votes in the past where Scotland, in spite of its small populace, has been the kingmaker sending Labour MP's to Westminster, should have been decried and argued about in England.

Why do you want the UK to have relevance in the wider world? This is unclear as you very often make clear your feelings regarding the voters in the UK and their leaders. We either have something of value or we don't.

Maybe I'm in the minority but I've always considered myself British-European, that is what is on my passport. If the Scots go I'm just left with being English. When I travel I'm British, not English. Where are you from? From the UK...

Despite this I can emphasise with the Scots position, they've been ignored and betrayed. I hope they stay, but I fear the damage is done and now they have a case to go it alone

Johnson needs to sort it

 

[DataPoint]

Maybe the SNP will win. There you go there's a winner. How do you know nothing good will come from it? If one assumes the word nationalism to be expressed with a lower case n it can be a different force in politics just as conservative with a small c is a different political manifestation than Conservative.

Do you disagree with the right to self-determination for the Scots?

To be honest - I couldn't care less. They've shrunk to such a low status that they won't be missed. Just go quietly and close the door behind you.

 

[vegster]

Maybe I'm in the minority but I've always considered myself British-European, that is what is on my passport. If the Scots go I'm just left with being English. When I travel I'm British, not English. Where are you from? From the UK...

Despite this I can emphasise with the Scots position, they've been ignored and betrayed. I hope they stay, but I fear the damage is done and now they have a case to go it alone

Johnson needs to sort it

That hardly inspires confidence given the last year or so of his premiership......and the u turns, disasters and dithering without mentioning the bullshit ...

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

Maybe I'm in the minority but I've always considered myself British-European, that is what is on my passport. If the Scots go I'm just left with being English. When I travel I'm British, not English. Where are you from? From the UK...

Despite this I can emphasise with the Scots position, they've been ignored and betrayed. I hope they stay, but I fear the damage is done and now they have a case to go it alone

Johnson needs to sort it

How are the Scots 'betrayed'.

I can only imagine you may be thinking that they should have a veto on a UK wide decision that doesn't comply with their current sentiment?

If so, that's hardly a commensurate type of relationship and only harmful in the long term. Why should the Scots be the tail that wags the dog?

 

[Baker lite]

In other news..

[emoji636]Born to win.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

To be honest - I couldn't care less. They've shrunk to such a low status that they won't be missed. Just go quietly and close the door behind you.

You are entitled to your view of course and it's as valid as the next man's. However I don't share your opinion that the Scots 'have shrunk to such a low status'. It's the kind of language which many remainers often use to describe England unfairly and in this context it is unfair to use in reference to Scotland. Many Scots enrich our society both here and North of the border, and it has been my pleasure to visit their lovely country and enjoy their hospitality.

And whisky.