[Politics] Brexit

[Doonhamer7]

That’s a lot of wishful thinking. The reality is that all EU members (including Spain) would have a veto over Scotland joining. Their position is clear. Also, there is no mechanism for your wishful thinking. The Referendum happened in 2014. There will be no repeat. Your argument is a proxy Remain argument as is much of the talk about break up of the U.K. and is the reason I mentioned earlier that this is simply another Brexit thread.Simply wishing something to be inevitable will not make it so.

Why is this ‘your wishful thinking’ I believe we should remain together

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Why is this ‘your wishful thinking’ I believe we should remain together

Reading between the lines it seems that used to be your view but you have changed your mind now we have left the EU. You listed lots of the reasons anti union Scots present for their cause but did not mention that they are irrelevant without a referendum. Personally I am indifferent to whether or not Scotland leaves but your predictions are overridden by that very important detail.

 

[stewart_weir]

So for those of you who don’t understand, we may joke about you being ‘enemies’, supporting who ever plays England etc but it is nearly always in a humerous way (yes there are dickheads who make it out to be more than it is but at least we don’t burn English holiday homes like the Welsh) but there are over a 1million of us living in England so it can’t be that bad (it’s certainly warmer). We are though not the same: our laws are different and have a different basis, our religion is different - you have a hierarchical church (with the Queen as the head) which is much closer to Catholicism, we have a collective approach based on elders approach (there is no titular head of the CoS), our education is different and was until the SNP damaged it better than England’s (and maybe not as good as Ireland’s), we have always had more collective socialist community value to live (which is everything Thatcherism wasn’t - based on looking after number one. Now I personally feel we should remain together as the UK as part of the EU as despite its bureaucracy As I feel it bought us all together as one.

Unfortunately because of comments like a large number of the above, we are going to see the breakup of the UK. Considering the Unionist Party had more MPs than Labour in the 1950s, it has been a continued drip since then massively exacerbated by Thatcher who never understood us, destroyed our heavy industry (which to be fair was uneconomic due to Underinvestment, the unions, all govt policy in 60s/70s and the Chinese subsidising the production of ships cheaper than we could buy the steel) and never replaced it, saying Scotland was no different to Lincolnshire, trying out to the poll tax in Scotland before the rest of the Uk was probably the worst of all and we could go on. I personally believe she did more for the rise nationalism than anyone since Edward I and didn’t even know she was doing it
So here is why it will happen:
1. The arguments used by the Better Together campaign are all but destroyed - if it was so true why didn’t we stay in the EU
2. Our Prime Minister will get destroyed when he backs the stay campaign, remember his better to invest in Croydon than Scotland articles
3. No credible Scottish Labour Party to keep the left side of politics argument
4. Most of us didn’t want to leave EU
5. I’ve rarely the negative anti-eastern European talk about people in Scotland than you do in England (are we more tolerant?)
6.Nicola Sturgoen is a better leader Wee Alec, I don’t like her myself but the way she has handled COVID has really embarrassed Westminster. At the end of the day if she does something, the you know we are doing the same in 2 days time
7. Unfortunately the Current Tory’s appear more elitist and less connected to normal people than at anytime in history, this looks worse the further you are aware of them

Once Scotland leaves the UK, the NI issue gets a new dynamic as remaining part of England isn’t the same as part of the UK (or whatever it is now called) and the damage that Brexit has caused will force others over to the depart side. As NI very much has a religious element to it (unlike Scotland, where most (not all) bigotry has gone - I mean how archaic does it look that only 30+years ago the biggest sporting institution wouldn’t sign a catholic) the situation will become much more dynamic maybe less a religious reason (but remembering that both sides must still have the means to escalate the violence) as younger people aren’t so concerned about what your religion is.

Then the Welsh issue will rise - as Wales would maybe seen as just a vassal state to England, so this could rise to Welsh nationalism.
I would expect all 3 Celtic nations can then become part of the greater European state (Spain will do its ‘toy throwing out of prom’ but the French and Germans make the real decisions) with all its culture towards the the environmental, workers right and the betterment of everyone and England can then happily become the 51st state of the USA, with its the individual over the community mentality (or worse become like Guam or Puerto Rico).

I would also add that Scottish football would benefit from being in the EU as clubs will be able to bring in European talent far easier.

 

[Pint of Ale and a Burger]

It will be a sad,sad day if it happens.

 

[NooBHA]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Scotland

That makes reference to a Census that is 10 years old - But i will concede a similar Census as of today would probably have people identifying as Catholic might be even less than 16% now.

However those of Catholic Origins - Which as you know being Scottish is very different to people actually Practicing the Catholic Faith and identifying as Catholic.

The people of Catholic Origins many of them are of Irish Descent - They have no Loyalty to ''The Union'' - And you know that all to well especially if you come from the Central Belt in the West of Scotland. They are sympathisers of the Irish Potato Famines and their Ancestors were forced to leave Ireland to escape the hunger and starvation.

Religious Bigotry is alive and still thrives in Scotland - My Family live amongst it every day of their lives and my Family was a Victim of it in the 1960s since I myself am a product of a mixed Catholic/Prodestant Parentage

You can have as many Scots claiming it isn't as bad as it was - That is true but nothing could be as bad as it was. That doesn't mean to say that it has all but gone. It most certainly hasn't.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

I would also add that Scottish football would benefit from being in the EU as clubs will be able to bring in European talent far easier.

 

[Razzoo]

Slightly off topic but its damning that Scotland has far more drug deaths per capita than any other country in Europe.

 

[hoof hearted]

Who gets the north sea oil would be one of the biggest issues. Most of the oil fields and infrastructure are north of the border, so it would be hard for England to argue for their control.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I think a lot of would be Remainers took a similar view and didn't bother casting a vote in the Brexit referendum.
That didn't end too well for the Remainers, of which I'm one and who didn't vote.

If you don't 'do' politics, then politics 'does' you.

I peeked at the post to which you replied out of curiosity; I have the poster on ignore, ironically because if his politics

 

[The Antikythera Mechanism]

We’d need to find a new home for our Submarine force, the job losses in the Faslane/Helensburgh region would be catastrophic!


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Probably be HMNB Devonport

 

[Doonhamer7]

That makes reference to a Census that is 10 years old - But i will concede a similar Census as of today would probably have people identifying as Catholic might be even less than 16% now.

However those of Catholic Origins - Which as you know being Scottish is very different to people actually Practicing the Catholic Faith and identifying as Catholic.

The people of Catholic Origins many of them are of Irish Descent - They have no Loyalty to ''The Union'' - And you know that all to well especially if you come from the Central Belt in the West of Scotland. They are sympathisers of the Irish Potato Famines and their Ancestors were forced to leave Ireland to escape the hunger and starvation.

Religious Bigotry is alive and still thrives in Scotland - My Family live amongst it every day of their lives and my Family was a Victim of it in the 1960s since I myself am a product of a mixed Catholic/Prodestant Parentage

You can have as many Scots claiming it isn't as bad as it was - That is true but nothing could be as bad as it was. That doesn't mean to say that it has all but gone. It most certainly hasn't.

Ok, Census may be 10 years old (but I expect it hasn’t ever been over 25%) and percentage of Catholics may actually have increased as there has been a rise Catholicism rise in the UK due to Eastern European’s. I know those of both religions who have both for and against - I’m not sure it’s as clear a religious item as I n NI.

I accept pockets of bigotry may still exist in the greater Glasgow area (as I expect so does racism, sexism and other forms of discrimination) but when I grew up you knew everyone was a “Prody” or a “Pape” in you area but now know one knows or cares this has probably been helped by getting rid of some of the the religious schools which actually highlighted the difference in a divided community.

My Glaswegian friend does remember being asked if she wanted to go ahead with her mixed marriage - she can’t imagine that happening today. Thankfully most young people nowadays don’t see people by their colour, religion, sexuality or other factors

 

[clapham_gull]

If Scotland had left the UK a few years ago that would have been an EU issue and problematic for countries like Spain with their own separatists.

With the UK now outside of the EU, Scottish independence is a UK only issue.

Many in Spain have now warmed to the idea of an independent Scotland rejoining the EU.



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[Rogero]

What is interesting is that the Orkney Islands and Shetlands Islands would like to go independent from Scotland. Most of Scotlands oil is there. Will Jimmy Kanke allow that to happen?

 

[NooBHA]

Ok, Census may be 10 years old (but I expect it hasn’t ever been over 25%) and percentage of Catholics may actually have increased as there has been a rise Catholicism rise in the UK due to Eastern European’s. I know those of both religions who have both for and against - I’m not sure it’s as clear a religious item as I n NI.

I accept pockets of bigotry may still exist in the greater Glasgow area (as I expect so does racism, sexism and other forms of discrimination) but when I grew up you knew everyone was a “Prody” or a “Pape” in you area but now know one knows or cares this has probably been helped by getting rid of some of the the religious schools which actually highlighted the difference in a divided community.

My Glaswegian friend does remember being asked if she wanted to go ahead with her mixed marriage - she can’t imagine that happening today. Thankfully most young people nowadays don’t see people by their colour, religion, sexuality or other factors

These things all still exist.

The priest would only marry my Mother and Father if my Mother signed an agreement that any Children born into the family would be brought up as Catholic - How barbaric is that.

My sister herself then married a Protestant and his family were just as anti Catholic to my Sister as my Mother's family were to my Father and my Father's family were just the same Anti Protestant to my Mother. There were ongoing disagreements about what school they should send their children to.

Even today - My Sister's own daughter is currently 19 weeks pregnant and there is disagreements about what school that child will go to. Even although the Child isn't even born yet.

These things are not uncommon occurrences - They are very real today.

I hated growing up in a Mixed Marriage as a Child - I absolutely hated it because I neither fitted in to one or the other and got picked on because of it. My whole family did.

However, I look back on it now as do all of my siblings and all 5 of us will say they same thing ''It was the best thing that ever happened to us in our lives'' Why ? Because our parents brought up to be Tolerant of all Faiths and all people..

It isn't just pockets of Scottish Society who still harbour Religious Bigotry - It is still very prevalent. And if you still lived amongst it or were exposed to it you would be able to see it for yourself.

 

[Questions]

Couldn’t give a shit about Europe. Uk. Scotland. Nor England really. The only people I do are F&F. They’re made up of loads nationalities. Everything else is politics which is actually a load of complete b ollocks too (tech term that). I / you have no influence over any of it really. We can’t even get my parish council to paint yellow lines on our corners (5 years they’ve been looking into, FIVE years!). Politics is a complete waste of time. Don’t get involved in. You waste valuable time in your life . And your life is running out. So enjoy what you can and try giving anyone and anything to do with politics a very wide berth. It’s all self serving which ever way you vote.

There is a lot of truth in this. You get to vote every now and again........ that’s it.

I think I’ve influenced my children somewhat in how they vote but I’m not sure I’ve convinced anyone else.
I don’t btw vote for what is always best for me though but the country as a whole.

 

[NooBHA]

If Scotland had left the UK a few years ago that would have been an EU issue and problematic for countries like Spain with their own separatists.

With the UK now outside of the EU, Scottish independence is a UK only issue.

Many in Spain have now warmed to the idea of an independent Scotland rejoining the EU.



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It didn't take the EU long to recognise Kosovo as an Independent nation and Kosovo was essentially just an Migration of Albanian Nationals into Serbia over a lengthy Period of Time

 

[beorhthelm]

Who gets the north sea oil would be one of the biggest issues. Most of the oil fields and infrastructure are north of the border, so it would be hard for England to argue for their control.

and somewhat moot in a fossil fuel free world.

 

[Baker lite]

It will be a sad,sad day if it happens.

This, be a tragedy if the Union ever crumbles, absolutely loved my time in Rosyth.


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[drew]

The population of Scotland is 5.4 Million. Less than half the population of London. People in Scotland (especially the newer residents of Scotland) would like to have, or their children would like to have, what a vast proportion of Europe / the world wants - the ability to move to London to work. The demise of the U.K. is greatly exaggerated. It is however the press next clickbait to sell airtime after the pandemic passes. A bigger question is for Irish Republic. It left the UK without a referendum in the 1920's. It's economy and legal system are in far closer step with the UK than the EU. Then, there is the problem of the Euro and governance. The EU is not a natural optimal currency area, and the problems of this will likely come into sharper focus after the pandemic. As will the problem that the creation of regulation / law in the EU is by the civil service then implemented by democratically elected politicians in member states, rather than the other way around. Pandemic's speed up change. It will be interesting to see where it ends. Either way, it's all relatively of mild importance. People's lives will be largely governed by events in Asia and the US. What happens in Ireland, Scotland and most of Europe is very much a sideshow.

Where did you get the idea that London has a population of over 10.8m? Believe it is currently 9m.

 

[drew]

At the end of the day it is about self determination. The financial aspect is merely one of the reasons people may vote one way or another.

We can't claim self determination is why we have The Falklands and Gibraltar and then deny the same criteria to NI, Wales and Scotland.