[Politics] Brexit

[GT49er]

Definitely don't hold your breath.
There will be no introspection. There will be no reform. The path forward and the mission will not change. We can all see benefits to being in the EU but we can also see how much better it should have been for us as a country. By sweeping away trading barriers, Brussels ensured that the manufacturing giant that is Germany got stronger and stronger. As our heavy industry base declined, so our profile changed and we became a service dominated country. Our demand for imports grew to the extent where we now run a massive trading deficit with the EU, despite being in surplus in services. An unhealthy balance has been created because there was an unwillingness, from both sides, to recognise that the EU in its present format, doesn't best suit us.
I have waited years to be persuaded that the EU was going to undertake the sort of reform needed but they have continued hellbent on the path to expansionism. Whole swathes of their ' membership ' have been reduced to poverty stricken countries with mass youth unemployment. The golden vision is in reality, the silver lined Northern European dream.
Its single- mindedness is both its strength and its ultimate demise. It won't survive as it is and its leaders will not attempt any change. They see no reason to. They don't believe that political and economic history is against them. Theirs is the new way and the right way forward and there is no going back.
There will be a stronger Franco-German trading alliance. They see the dangers ahead. They can see splinters becoming cracks. This is the powerhouse core of Europe. Not this behemoth, getting ever bigger before it bursts, called the EU. European politics will determine the future of the EU and European politics is changing.

Brilliant post.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Question for the remainers. Apparently we can't possibly leave with No Deal as it would result in economic Armageddon etc. So if Jeremy Corbyn was to win a narrow general election victory would we ignore that and demand another election? A lot of predictions say him being elected would result in far more economic damage than leaving the EU. We could call it a peoples vote maybe instead of another General Election? Or maybe we could say that because it was a narrow victory we should respect the people who lost & water down his policies so much it becomes meaningless?

Of course we can leave with no deal.

It's just that the vast majority of MPs aren't willing to take the responsibility for investing 10s of billions over the next few years to prepare for it operationally (and take the economic and political fallout) or to just go ahead and do it, have an operational disaster, and then have to beg to be allowed back in the EU after a few weeks.

And those who are currently claiming to want 'no deal' certainly wouldn't put their careers on the line is they actually thought it would happen (Boris, Raab, JEM etc).

I did explain this about 3 years ago and, 3 years on, guess what has happened ?

 

[Baldseagull]

There's no argument to be had ,the vote was to leave people voted to leave the EU, people like you don't like that fact and have resorted to arguing about anything but leaving, it's all about being sore losers and trying to highlight anything that doesn't fit into your mind set ,
regards
DR

See, it's not about not liking it, it isn't a different flavour of ice cream, its about what is the best course to take. I don't like sacking Hughton, but with the appointment of Graham Potter, I have to concede that it was probably the correct decision to take in the interests of BHAFC.

 

[bazbha]

Brilliant post.

I agree. Brilliant post. Stand by for the words extreme / far right / racist / Daily Mail reader etc to be thrown about fairly soon. Having a well worded, carefully thought out & intelligent alternative opinion doesn't go down too well.

 

[Baldseagull]

And there in a few you words you have succinctly defined the arrogance of remainers, who think they're beings of superior intelligence influenced by logic (We are intelligent and logical, they aren't). It's a myth, of course; remainers are not intrinsically more intelligent than leavers. Sadly for democracy, too many of them believe they are.

So present a logical argument for leaving. The post I responded to was full of emotive language, without facts.

 

[drew]

What did they vote for then
regards
DR

Reality check: Population of the country is 66m! Ok, let's be fair and eliminate those not eligible to vote leaving approx 47m. I believe you are capable of doing the remaining maths!!!

 

[bazbha]

Of course we can leave with no deal.

It's just that the vast majority of MPs aren't willing to take the responsibility for investing 10s of billions over the next few years to prepare for it operationally (and take the economic and political fallout) or to just go ahead and do it, have an operational disaster, and then have to beg to be allowed back in the EU after a few weeks.

And those who are currently claiming to want 'no deal' certainly wouldn't put their careers on the line is they actually thought it would happen (Boris, Raab, JEM etc).

I did explain this about 3 years ago and, 3 years on, guess what has happened ?

Didn't answer my question but I respect your view. A few weeks is a bit hasty though! I think even the most ardent leaver would agree there will be some short term economic turbulence. Medium to long term I think we would prosper but I don't know that. No one knows. Its just predictions which based on past experience usually turn out to be wrong.

 

[ManOfSussex]

Those who "know their place" and are fooled by the posh accent of Rees Mogg when even the Royal family don't speak like that.

It's all it takes - a Brexit backing Tory with a posh voice talking about a 'managed no deal Brexit' (or whatever the phrase for it is this week) mix in a bit of nostalgia, chuck in a bit of 'our own free trade deals, ya' and add a sprinkling of 'take back control of our laws, borders and money, what, what, what because we're Briddish' and the pup gets sold because people fall for it due to their inherent deference to such people.

 

[Hu_Camus]

My opinions haven’t changed.

We're all very relieved, I'm sure.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

Reality check: Population of the country is 66m! Ok, let's be fair and eliminate those not eligible to vote leaving approx 47m. I believe you are capable of doing the remaining maths!!!

What are you waffling on about LEAVE MEANS LEAVE not stay
regards
DR

 

[WATFORD zero]

Didn't answer my question but I respect your view. A few weeks is a bit hasty though! I think even the most ardent leaver would agree there will be some short term economic turbulence. Medium to long term I think we would prosper but I don't know that. No one knows. Its just predictions which based on past experience usually turn out to be wrong.

I think your views may be a little different had you been a fly on the wall at Dominic Raab's famous briefing on how Dover actually operates (and this was after he was made SoS). Boris hasn't had that briefing, because he, rather famously, 'doesn't do detail'. Funnily enough, the exact same trait as the first SoS at Brexeu and ardent Brexiteer David Davis.

The people leading 'no deal' charge have no understanding how it would operate, they're professional politicians

Anyway, lovely sunny day, off out. Hope you have time to enjoy it too

 

[Baldseagull]

I agree. Brilliant post. Stand by for the words extreme / far right / racist / Daily Mail reader etc to be thrown about fairly soon. Having a well worded, carefully thought out & intelligent alternative opinion doesn't go down too well.

That post says the EU swept away trade barriers, which is only half the story, Thatcher pushed for and got the EU to create the single market, it needs a European wide body to implement it, but it is a UK creation.
That post says that action allowed Germany to dominate manufacturing and that is why we have so little in the UK, that's bollocks. Germany took the choice that was open to us, to join the Euro, which gave it a competitive edge in manufacturing, and the UK Government took the choice to develop a service economy.
That post claims that the EU is expansionist, but it has been the UK that has been the strongest advocate for previous expansions, and worked hard to get those former communist countries in.

 

[Hu_Camus]

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

See, it's not about not liking it, it isn't a different flavour of ice cream, its about what is the best course to take. I don't like sacking Hughton, but with the appointment of Graham Potter, I have to concede that it was probably the correct decision to take in the interests of BHAFC.

The best course is to respects people's decisions in the first place not keep on moaning

regards
DR

 

[GT49er]

So present a logical argument for leaving. The post I responded to was full of emotive language, without facts.

See post#87335. Full of facts. Loaded with logic. Intelligently and succinctly argued.

Not anything you will like, or recognise, though.

 

[Chicken Run]

We're all very relieved, I'm sure.

You asked the question, why the need for sarcasm?

 

[Baldseagull]

See post#87335. Full of facts. Loaded with logic. Intelligently and succinctly argued.

Not anything you will like, or recognise, though.

That eloquent post makes no good argument for leaving, it denigrates the EU, but with falsehoods and half truths.
The rise of German manufacturing was not an EU determined thing, the same choices Germany had, we had, we could have pushed manufacturing and joined the Euro, but we kept Sterling and pushed services.
It says the EU is hell bent on expansion, yet it's the UK that has advocated most for previous expansions of the EU, and there is no qualifying of whether expansion is a good or bad thing in any case, it is certainly a bit disrupting when a new member or members join, but I am sure you are willing to put up with short term disruption for long term gain.
Even if the statements in that post were all accurate, there is no logical argument for how the UK will have it's prospects improved by leaving anywhere in that post, please highlight for me any portion that does if you think I have missed something.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

That eloquent post makes no good argument for leaving, it denigrates the EU, but with falsehoods and half truths.
The rise of German manufacturing was not an EU determined thing, the same choices Germany had, we had, we could have pushed manufacturing and joined the Euro, but we kept Sterling and pushed services.
It says the EU is hell bent on expansion, yet it's the UK that has advocated most for previous expansions of the EU, and there is no qualifying of whether expansion is a good or bad thing in any case, it is certainly a bit disrupting when a new member or members join, but I am sure you are willing to put up with short term disruption for long term gain.
Even if the statements in that post were all accurate, there is no logical argument for how the UK will have it's prospects improved by leaving anywhere in that post, please highlight for me any portion that does if you think I have missed something.

All these assumptions you keep putting up are they short or long term and if they're long term are you borrowing Watford blokes piece of tat
regards
DR

 

[Baldseagull]

The best course is to respects people's decisions in the first place not keep on moaning

regards
DR

Not when those decisions affect me, I will take Farages example and keep banging on about it, for many years if necessary, but I will try to be truthful about it.

 

[Baldseagull]

All these assumptions you keep putting up are they short or long term and if they're long term are you borrowing Watford blokes piece of tat
regards
DR

What assumptions?