[Politics] Brexit

[WATFORD zero]

the whole issue has now become a cluster**** .......

And after it started out so well, with a considered, well thought out referendum with well planned, detailed and implementable descriptions of both options, who could have seen this coming

 

[sydney]

And after it started out so well, with a considered, well thought out referendum with well planned, detailed implementable descriptions of both options, who could have seen this coming

cherry picking as usual tatty o

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

footage of the sunderland slag shitting in Trafalgar fountain pushed me over the edge......

i'm not saying 25 -55 yr olds disagree on anything , they just have so very little in common , maybe 25 -65 yr olds would be more appt.

My immediate thought is I wouldn’t expect a 25 year old to have much in common with a 55 year old.

 

[sydney]

My immediate thought is I wouldn’t expect a 25 year old to have much in common with a 55 year old.

not when their sense of community and pride in their culture has been collapsed around them no.....

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

not when their sense of community and pride in their culture has been collapsed around them no.....

True, they will share the same environment but then this is the case for everyone. And yes they will have some small amount of commonality but I really do not expect them, for example, to be moaning about natural wines on their iPad. In fact I really hope they’re nursing a hangover and asking the complete stranger they met last night what they want for breakfast. If they’re not they should be; leave being middle-aged to us.

 

[sydney]

True, they will share the same environment but then this is the case for everyone. And yes they will have some small amount of commonality but I really do not expect them, for example, to be moaning about natural wines on their iPad. In fact I really hope they’re nursing a hangover and asking the complete stranger they met last night what they want for breakfast. If they’re not they should be; leave being middle-aged to us.

breakfast...?? more of the same hopefully , them maybe a shower and a bit more ......you are as young as you feel mate

 

[drew]

footage of the sunderland slag shitting in Trafalgar fountain pushed me over the edge......

i'm not saying 25 -55 yr olds disagree on anything , they just have so very little in common , maybe 25 -65 yr olds would be more appt.

You mean this. https://fanbanter.co.uk/video-femal...ntain-and-flashes-bum-false-claims-she-pooed/

If so, then you clearly didn't watch the video.

 

[Baldseagull]

Ok. Right of reply.
1) How am I denigrating the EU? I stated that I could see clear benefits of being a member. I can see clearly what they are trying to achieve. As someone who has studied political and economic history, I can also see the dangers ahead. Its a personal opinion of course but I see no future for the EU as it stands. It is about to lose one of its single biggest contributors and some member states have already told Brussels that they are not willing to pay more into the budget, to compensate for our departure. The EU budget will shrink because of Brexit, unless they find other revenue streams. I have stated that politics is changing the face of Europe and will likely dictate the future of the EU. Is that a falsehood or wild speculation?
2) Where do I state that the rise of German manufacturing was an EU led thing? I said it benefits Germany because they are already a powerhouse in that sector. ( 3rd highest percentage of manufacturing to GDP in the world at 23% ....ours is 10% )They saw the decline in heavy industry in the UK and took their opportunity to build themselves. With the aid of their banks they invested heavily in this sector. In the last 50 years, our country has seen the second largest drop in manufacturing employment in the world. It wasn't an accident. It was deliberate policy. A belief in services ( particularly financial ) led those in authority to believe that it was fine to allow manufacturing to decline. Thatcherism led many to believe that those gaps would be filled by other industries. They weren't and it created a shortage of quality jobs for the working class. I would like to know how, after 25-30 years of steady decline in our manufacturing base, we could have ' pushed ' it and turned it around and joined the Euro?
3) The UK did push for EU expansion, particularly in the East. I think you will find that the real emphasis was quite a few years ago and I also think that you will find that it fitted quite nicely into our political agenda at the time. i.e an open door policy is to be encouraged. We need more migrant workers.
4) There are clearly pro's and con's for leaving the EU. If you just take consumer goods, you could argue that you are getting lower prices because of the EU bargaining power. I could argue that we each lose a lot of money each year because of EU VAT contributions and the CAP. You could argue the benefits of barrier free trading. I could argue that EU bureaucracy strangles a lot of smaller UK businesses. And so on.
I made my mind up some time ago that the EU didn't have a long term future and nothing I have seen is going to convince me otherwise. Its operates protectionism for its members and negotiates on a global stage but its not keeping pace with the rest of the world and is shrinking as a global force. We have changed as a country and although it has served us well in the past, we need more now than being wrapped up in the comfort of the EU blanket. If we cannot determine our own way forward, we will not grow. We have to strengthen our position globally. It won't be easy. Nothing ever is. Many fear change. They are happy with their lot. They have a particular lifestyle and aren't prepared to compromise.
The EU by its nature is devisive. Those that want sovereignty and independence and self-determination cannot ally with those who are sold on the EU. Any manner of economic benefit cannot heal that divide.

1. I found the statements "There will be no introspection. There will be no reform. The path forward and the mission will not change." and "Whole swathes of their ' membership ' have been reduced to poverty stricken countries with mass youth unemployment." particularly denigrating.
You seem to be saying, us leaving will be so damaging to the EU that you see no future in it, so we should leave because we don't want to get caught up in the damage our leaving will cause?

2. In your original post you stated "By sweeping away trading barriers, Brussels ensured that the manufacturing giant that is Germany got stronger and stronger. As our heavy industry base declined, so our profile changed and we became a service dominated country. Our demand for imports grew to the extent where we now run a massive trading deficit with the EU, despite being in surplus in services."
That statement to me implies Germany became a manufacturing Giant and the UK a Service led economy, as a result of EU single market forming, as if Germany were dealt a better hand than the UK by it.
In your reply above you make it clear that it was UK policy to pursue a services led economy, but that is not the impression you gave in the previous post. I would add that the formation of the Single Market was a UK led policy.
Joining the Euro would have given us the same currency advantage that Germany has used to maintain a lower cost of their products, i.e. the Euro exchange rate is where it is due to all Eurozone countries balance of trade, not just Germany's, which keeps it lower. Pushing manufacturing involves many measures, from tax breaks for certain types of industry, or on deployment of increased automation, to regional development for infrastructure. I am not advocating joining the Euro, but it is not a fair criticism to compare what Germany has been able to do because of EU rules, when we have had the option to take the same course as Germany has.

3. Thank you for acknowledging the UK role in expansion, but in your original post you said "I have waited years to be persuaded that the EU was going to undertake the sort of reform needed but they have continued hellbent on the path to expansionism"
and made no mention of that being the path the UK had pushed for, and that it actually suits us quite well to have a fluid labour market where when work is available there is a ready source of workers of all skills, and that when there is not, there are other labour markets for workers to go to, so not becoming long term welfare dependant.

4. Obviously, yes, there are pros and cons. The pros far outweigh the cons for me. The CAP has many aims embodied, not least of which is food security, it has its flaws, and it has had many versions over the years, I believe it is a good idea to have a common agricultural policy, but obviously the terms of the policy can be deemed good or bad. It is definitely one area where the EU struggles to get it right, but I think it is a struggle worth continuing with. It is not really shrinking as a Global force, but Asia is rising, and in that sense it is in the same position as any other well developed country or group of countries, leaving and being the UK alone will not make us more of a force in the world, it will exacerbate that position of being smaller relative to the developing giants of India and China. Protectionism is needed where you expect high standards of welfare and environmental protection, it helps encourage good welfare and environmental protection in other parts of the world. If we are a big enough market, we can say to a country that allows child labour to make it's products the tariff can go if you send those kids to school instead, or the tariff can drop if you adopt proper health and safety standards for your workers. Total free trade allows government subsidised industries, lower employment cost through exploitation, and lower environmental care operations to kill off domestic industry that is expected to maintain those high standards. It is one of the things that worries me when Farage and Rees-Mogg say we can be more competitive, to compete with other nations they would have a bonfire of regulations, and you may say that's great, we have too many rules and regulations, but we have them because we have found reason to have them, there might be one or two that are not well thought out and the unintended consequences were not forseen, but these can be changed, like the VAT rules that stopped the UK from applying a zero rate on sanitary products. (incidentally, the rule was that if these products that had previously had a rate applied, then the rate could only be at between 5% and 15%, if the UK had kept the Zero rate it had in the past, as Ireland did, it would not have been a problem in the UK, it occurred because a John Majors government applied an 8% VAT rate when they were previously zero rated).


I could not disagree more with the statement that the EU is divisive. There is a huge amount of independence and Sovereignty that remains with the member states, it is politicians like Farage and Rees-Mogg that are divisive.
Strengthening our position Globally is going to be a lot harder as the UK alone, surely you can see that?

You say you have made your mind up that the EU has no future, and nothing you have seen will sway you from that. I say you are looking for the evidence to support your theory, rather than looking at the evidence and evaluating it fairly, because you have made your mind up.

 

[sydney]

You mean this. https://fanbanter.co.uk/video-femal...ntain-and-flashes-bum-false-claims-she-pooed/

If so, then you clearly didn't watch the video.

no ....after seeing the state of her i had no desire to see wether she shat in the fountain or not..........

 

[Leekbrookgull]

Brexit Party. How many seats ?

Surely 35+ ?

 

[Stat Brother]

Oh come on - Why do I get so much shite on here when there's stuff like this?

 

[Kuipers Supporters Club]

Rascist ***** the lot of them.

Rubbish. The European Parliament currently has 751 members, 3 are black. The Brexit Party has 3 alone and could be about to double the BAME representation.

 

[Hugo Rune]

Brexit Party. How many seats ?

So 28 seats for Brexit and none for UKIP seems like a good prediction. However, anything under 30 seats for Brexit would be good.

 

[The Clamp]

They’ll do well. People are ****wits.

 

[The Clamp]

Rubbish. The European Parliament currently has 751 members, 3 are black. The Brexit Party has 3 alone and could be about to double the BAME representation.

Black people can be racist too. And propaganda parties like Brexit get them on board on purpose so people can say “they’re not racist look, they have some black ones”.

And idiots fall for it.

 

[Leekbrookgull]

They’ll do well. People are ****wits.

Really ?

 

[Weststander]

So 28 seats for Brexit and none for UKIP seems like a good prediction. However, anything under 30 seats for Brexit would be good.

That would be shockingly poor for the Greens. PR is always stated at the system that would give them the seats they deserve.

When Lucas addresses rallies, she gives the impression of a unstoppable party going from strength to strength.

 

[The Clamp]

Really ?

well, it wouldn’t surprise me if they do well. Put it that way.

 

[Spicy]

well, it wouldn’t surprise me if they do well. Put it that way.

Now let me think, are you one of those Holier than though Remainers?!

 

[knocky1]

the whole issue has now become a cluster**** ......much like this thread , a series of finger pointing , back stabbing , obstructive manoeuvring , by self serving , inadequate , inept people who were charged by the electorate/population to serve their best interests......i honestly can't see any good coming out of any future negotiations at any level , the whole "political class" are compromised and politics has now become a game to an extent that exceeds the situation in any other country.....and i include tin pot countries in Africa in that statement.

it is a fact that the manufacturing sector has been all but shut down in Britain , there are no jobs as stated above for the working classes , i'm talking wholesale jobs , not a couple hundred here and there , there is a huge culture gap between the generations , your average 25 year old has absolutely nothing in common with your average 55 year old and basically the social fabric of the country is being undermined.......those behind the scenes in westminster have done a cracking job with bringing the country to it's knees and it appears now that should Brexit continue then the UK will get right royally shafted from all directions.......the toppers will fly the coup and the sovereign wealth of the nation will disappear into private coffers.
How are these politicians allowed to stretch out the process like this , it is damaging every aspect of our culture , international reputation and good will from Europe , at the end of the day they have showed their ineptitude to the nth degree......"lions lead by donkeys".......ring any bells.

You’re bang on. I had to drop into Paradise Park Garden Centre today in Newhaven, on the way home from an archaeological lecture of early settlements above Birling Gap, to buy some shade loving all year round ferns.....what were the Tory party thinking when they decided to let you lot plan the future.