[Politics] Brexit

[dingodan]

"In September 2017, European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker proposed qualified majority voting for foreign policy decisions.24 This would certainly remove a big obstacle to the EU’s effectiveness and could be done even under the existing treaty. However, it is very unlikely to happen. By accepting majority voting, member states would effectively subordinate their own national foreign policy to that of the EU, and only very few of them seem ready to do that."

I think you are being a little paranoid.

If there ever comes to be a UK Government that wants to do it, and the other member states do to, it still will not happen unless a UK referendum approves it, and likewise in many other member states. It is not a realistic possibility.

What makes you think a referendum would be required?

It will happen eventually. I'm being realistic, and you are being naive.

 

[Bold Seagull]

& will no doubt be replaced by someone who has a vision completely different to his, right? No.

Presidents are nominated by the Council, if they nominated Juncker then he must have fit the bill. The new guy will fit the bill too.

The vision isn't Junckers anyway, it's an institutional vision. If Juncker felt any differently he wouldn't have been nominated and then "elected" President in the first place.

Isn't the vote for any chairman, president or leader of an organisation based on an election with some form of manifesto? Presumably the replacement candidates will put forward their own visions of how they will lead and those will be voted on. The institutional vision is presumably consensus?

As a completely different example, the RIBA will elect a President who will serve for 2 years, and each election the candidates put forward their vision for the institution. Not sure this would be any different?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

What makes you think a referendum would be required?

It will happen eventually. I'm being realistic, and you are being naive.

Hold the front page. Dingodan is the only one who knows what is going to happen and all the rest of us are naive. Even those of us who have actually served in the armed forces.

Do you know how NATO works? NATO cannot call up troops in Britain. Only Parliament can do that. NATO can ask Britain to supply troops for a specific task, but it is up to the government or Parliament if put to a vote, to supply troops.
NATO forces do exercises together.
An EU army would work in a similar way. It is not compulsory and there is a power of veto.

 

[dingodan]

Isn't the vote for any chairman, president or leader of an organisation based on an election with some form of manifesto? Presumably the replacement candidates will put forward their own visions of how they will lead and those will be voted on. The institutional vision is presumably consensus?

As a completely different example, the RIBA will elect a President who will serve for 2 years, and each election the candidates put forward their vision for the institution. Not sure this would be any different?

Right. Juncker's vision is the vision which got him elected. But also, don't forget, he had to be nominated before he was up for election. I don't know about the other nominees but if the Council have a vision then they will nominate those who share it. Then the European Parliament (who may have a majority consensus for the same vision as the council anyway) get to vote on which of the Council's nominees they want to elect. Will they choose Coke or will they choose Pepsi?

 

[vegster]

I'd feel let down if I was in your position, JD promised you sunny uplands after Brexit and heavily campaigned for it, yet as soon as S'pore signed a free trade deal with the EU he announced his was building his car there, and now the Brexit unicorns haven't arrived he's ditched the UK to put his HQ over as well.

At least you still have the JCB bloke on board and has now employed failed DD for £3k / hour, all is not lost

David Davis's " Fee for his work " of 20 hours a year for JCB is frankly disgusting. It frankly is unethical verging on a bribe.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Right. Juncker's vision is the vision which got him elected. But also, don't forget, he had to be nominated before he was up for election. I don't know about the other nominees but if the Council have a vision then they will nominate those who share it. Then the European Parliament (who may have a majority consensus for the same vision as the council anyway) get to vote on which of the Council's nominees they want to elect. Will they choose Coke or will they choose Pepsi?

Each state nominates their representative on the Council don't they? They then vote for their nominee which is presumably based on what they stand for, that is ratified by the Parliament. Like any institutional body, I doubt very much there is the kind of shared collective agreed vision that you are portraying, government of any kind rarely works like that.

Like with your Coke or Pepsi comment, seems politics is just binary for a lot of people these days.

 

[dingodan]

Hold the front page. Dingodan is the only one who knows what is going to happen and all the rest of us are naive. Even those of us who have actually served in the armed forces.

Do you know how NATO works? NATO cannot call up troops in Britain. Only Parliament can do that. NATO can ask Britain to supply troops for a specific task, but it is up to the government or Parliament if put to a vote, to supply troops.
NATO forces do exercises together.
An EU army would work in a similar way. It is not compulsory and there is a power of veto.

NATO isn't a government, it's an alliance.

 

[dingodan]

Each state nominates their representative on the Council don't they? They then vote for their nominee which is presumably based on what they stand for, that is ratified by the Parliament. Like any institutional body, I doubt very much there is the kind of shared collective agreed vision that you are portraying, government of any kind rarely works like that.

Like with your Coke or Pepsi comment, seems politics is just binary for a lot of people these days.

Coke vs Pepsi is not binary. That was the point. It's Unary.

 

[nicko31]

David Davis's " Fee for his work " of 20 hours a year for JCB is frankly disgusting. It frankly is unethical verging on a bribe.

Just what exactly can the Brexit Bulldog do for Deputy lieutenant Barron Bamford to justify £3k / hour?

That said BJ got £94k for 2 hours work from a US asset management firm for 2 hrs work, so maybe DD is a bargain

 

[Baldseagull]

What makes you think a referendum would be required?

It will happen eventually. I'm being realistic, and you are being naive.

It may happen eventually, but I am pretty sure you and I won't be alive to see it, and if it does, it will be because we as a nation decided we wanted it to.
The European Union Act 2011 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2011/12/contents requires a UK referendum before any significant change to our relationship with the EU, however this is currently repealed by the European Union Withdrawal Act http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2018/16/contents/enacted ,this was done to avoid a referendum on the Leave deal, or lack of one before we actually leave.

To remain in the EU we would repeal the Withdrawal act, which would bring the 2011 act back into force.

 

[Baldseagull]

Right. Juncker's vision is the vision which got him elected. But also, don't forget, he had to be nominated before he was up for election. I don't know about the other nominees but if the Council have a vision then they will nominate those who share it. Then the European Parliament (who may have a majority consensus for the same vision as the council anyway) get to vote on which of the Council's nominees they want to elect. Will they choose Coke or will they choose Pepsi?

You know who makes up the Council though don't you? Even the leaders of the member states that are pro federalisation will be reluctant to push a federalist agenda right now, because of the fuel it gives populists, and there are many governments in the EU now that are very hostile to any further powers being gained by the EU.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

NATO isn't a government, it's an alliance.

Neither is the EU Parliament.

 

[Baldseagull]

NATO isn't a government, it's an alliance.

An unusually long lasting one, but one that is looking weaker today with a POTUS that seems to be a fan of Putin at the least, and possibly a stooge for him.

 

[vegster]

It looks like the business community know their onions, from the BBC Business page :

Sterling is down 0.36% against the dollar at $1.3022.
It follows a sharp rise in the pound on Wednesday following reports that the prospect of a no-deal Brexit was subsiding.


So, looks like we can fully expect the Pound to tank with either No Deal or May's " Deal " …


Looks like I will get one more Belgian beer run in before it all goes down the pan.

 

[Pavilionaire]

David Davis's " Fee for his work " of 20 hours a year for JCB is frankly disgusting. It frankly is unethical verging on a bribe.

This means he gets more than 75% of an MP's basic annual salary for doing two and a half days work a year in the private sector. He should do the decent thing and retire as an MP.

 

[Trufflehound]

Looks like I will get one more Belgian beer run in before it all goes down the pan.

Don't throw all of it down the pan. At least try to drink some of it...

 

[vegster]

Don't throw all of it down the pan. At least try to drink some of it...

I fear its the UK that is going down the pan, going to try to get to Vanuxeem in Ploegsteert one more time as I have the deposits on four crates full of empties that equates to about 40 Euro's..... my masterplan is to bring my own crates for the last run and buy the beers loose, thus only l lose the 10c a bottle. Going to be a difficult choice, going to have to get Rocheforte's, Tripel Karmeliet and Kasteel Donkers and will have some hard choices after that.

 

[Questions]

It looks like the business community know their onions, from the BBC Business page :

Sterling is down 0.36% against the dollar at $1.3022.
It follows a sharp rise in the pound on Wednesday following reports that the prospect of a no-deal Brexit was subsiding.


So, looks like we can fully expect the Pound to tank with either No Deal or May's " Deal " …


Looks like I will get one more Belgian beer run in before it all goes down the pan.

I wonder how the 56% who voted leave in Flintshire feel today with the Airbus statements. Oh and the 100,000 people who work for connected suppliers around the UK ?
It isn’t up for debate how the major companies were going to view things - they were pretty vehement in their warnings that there would be at least be massive uncertainty and all that could entail before the real truths hit home.

 

[Questions]

I fear its the UK that is going down the pan, going to try to get to Vanuxeem in Ploegsteert one more time as I have the deposits on four crates full of empties that equates to about 40 Euro's..... my masterplan is to bring my own crates for the last run and buy the beers loose, thus only l lose the 10c a bottle. Going to be a difficult choice, going to have to get Rocheforte's, Tripel Karmeliet and Kasteel Donkers and will have some hard choices after that.

As complicated as the Brexit talks Veg. Don’t ffs get your decision wrong.

 

[BBassic]

The People's Republic of China was established in 1949 as a 'People's Democratic Dictatorship',Chairman Mao's own words.Look in your copy of Marxism,the future.

You know it's not 1949, right?

In 2019 China is generally not considered a democratic country.

Nabbed this from Wikipedia, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_in_China:

Democracy was introduced to China in the late 19th century. The debate over its definition and application was one of the major ideological battlegrounds in Chinese politics for over a century.

Modern Chinese leaders state that they run a "socialist democracy" where the Communist Party of China is a central authority that acts in the interest of the people.[1] The Communist Party approves what political parties can run. The Democracy Index scores China a 3.1 out of 10, classifying its government as authoritarian.

Zhengxu Wang of Fudan University in Shanghai wrote in a report in 2007 "It is clear that public support for democracy is high in China. Public opinion surveys show that more than 90% of Chinese citizens believe that having a democracy is good. But the majority is not yet ready for a major effort towards democratization because they still see economic growth and social stability as more important than freedom of speech, political participation, and other democratic rights."[2]

A ruling party having the final word on what party can, or can not, run doesn't sound very democratic to me.

There's tons, pages of them, of articles debating whether China is a truly democratic country. From what I've read the answer is generally "No, not really".