[Politics] Brexit

[Two Professors]

Rag tag resistance movements? I’m almost speechless. The efforts that the resistance made throughout Europe in the Second World War made it possible not only for the free allies to carry out crucial operations they saved the lives of countless allies shot down or stranded not to mention the lives of tens of thousands of jews, Poles, Romas, children, political enemies and intelligencia and escapees. They helped many, many of our boys get to safety.

Their life endangering activities’ legacy means many families were reunited and even closer to home, founded the amazing charity Emmaus, still going strong in Sussex to this day.

Your trivialisation of their supreme efforts and sacrifices shows you up as an ill informed clump not to mention how downright insulting your assertion is.

I thought you couldn’t lose anymore credibility. I was wrong.

Your total lack of any real knowledge on the war is no surprise to me.'Ill informed clump' is a new one on me.Is it an English version of thicket?

 

[fanseagull]

Even you can't be this thick? Surely? SURELY?

Yes, yes he can....

 

[Baldseagull]

If a country like ours - with the might of an empire behind it, and with the advantage of being surround by water - genuinely considered appeasement before going to war with Germany, what makes you think nations on the European landmass with vastly inferior firepower and numbers had any choice beyond accepting German control?

The Dutch fought but were hopelessly overpowered. So did the Greeks, the French, the Poles, and so on. Many of these went underground. Why are you so thick as to need this spelling out?

If only they had been coordinated in some sort of European joint defence strategy, they might have been able to resist more effectively a large and powerful neighbour with ambitions to expand.

 

[Rodney Thomas]

I really feel you have no grasp on reality or history.I asked which countries were helping us against the Germans and Italians.Where were the Greek goverNment,the Greek army,the Greek air force,the Greek navy?Who liberated the Greek people from German domination?Foreign forces freed them,with some Greeks assisting,like for example Prince Phillip.

The Greek government did help us. Metexas said no to the Italian ambassador and thus join the British in the flight against Axis forces. They pushed the Italians back into Albania and if we’d offered them more support they might have held the line in Macedonia against the Germans. They continued to flight to the death in Crete to support the British evacuation. So, yes, they were helping us as a country (and government) against the Germans. Churchill even called it their “finest hour” for **** sake.

You’ve got yourself into such a muddle you’re even disagreeing with Churchill

 

[Two Professors]

If a country like ours - with the might of an empire behind it, and with the advantage of being surround by water - genuinely considered appeasement before going to war with Germany, what makes you think nations on the European landmass with vastly inferior firepower and numbers had any choice beyond accepting German control?

The Dutch fought but were hopelessly overpowered. So did the Greeks, the French, the Poles, and so on. Many of these went underground. Why are you so thick as to need this spelling out?

Oh dear,the reason appeasement was so necessary was it gave us time to manufacture the aircraft needed to defeat the Luftwaffe.The French were far more powerful than Germany,but badly led by their politicians.The Germans hadn't conquered half of France when they surrendered.

 

[Simster]

Your total lack of any real knowledge on the war is no surprise to me.'Ill informed clump' is a new one on me.Is it an English version of thicket?

Bloke who doesn't know modern day China is not a democratic country accuses fellow poster of not knowing what he's talking about.


Reminds me Farage whinging ignorantly about the highly educated and experienced Bank of England governor being a remainer - from his position of losing his last election to a man dressed as a dolphin.

 

[dingodan]

Because it isn't a reality?
The Commission does not have any powers to propose laws regarding defence. The Council, the elected heads of the 28 can propose a common defence, but it must be unanimous, that means we or any other member can veto any common defence ideas. There are already operations where the EU covers the costs through ATHENA, which is a separate budget that we pay into by choice, and can leave at any time, for operations that are approved by the EU Military Committee, which is each member states head of defence. This means, if the Military Committee decides that for the benefit of the whole EU, an action or presence would be useful in an area, the members that provide that presence can claim some of the costs back from the pot. Whilst on EU approved operations, UK soldiers will wear the EU flag on uniforms in addition but are at all times UK soldiers, just as they are when on NATO operations and wearing NATO insignia.

Recommended reading:

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/legis...nger-global-actor/file-european-defence-union

https://www.pism.pl/publications/bulletin/no-162-1233

https://carnegieeurope.eu/2017/12/05/is-there-hope-for-eu-foreign-policy-pub-74909

https://www.euractiv.com/section/de...s-macron-proposes-eu-collective-defence-plan/

 

[Two Professors]

The Greek government did help us. Metexas said no to the Italian ambassador and thus join the British in the flight against Axis forces. They pushed the Italians back into Albania and if we’d offered them more support they might have held the line in Macedonia against the Germans. They continued to flight to the death in Crete to support the British evacuation. So, yes, they were helping us as a country (and government) against the Germans. Churchill even called it their “finest hour” for **** sake.

You’ve got yourself into such a muddle you’re even disagreeing with Churchill

So are you trying to tell me the Greeks didn't surrender then?As for quoting Churchill,I dare say you can find him saying just about anything,he was a politician for many years,and a journalist before that.

 

[Simster]

Oh dear,the reason appeasement was so necessary was it gave us time to manufacture the aircraft needed to defeat the Luftwaffe.The French were far more powerful than Germany,but badly led by their politicians.The Germans hadn't conquered half of France when they surrendered.

I'm sure someone more informed than me will come along to explain why you're wrong as usual. But in any case, that's one country out of dozens of examples.

Still, at least we now know you are aware that France is in Europe, which is a little surprising.

 

[Rodney Thomas]

So are you trying to tell me the Greeks didn't surrender then?As for quoting Churchill,I dare say you can find him saying just about anything,he was a politician for many years,and a journalist before that.

Certainly some of them surrendered (after flighting valiantly, delaying Operation Barbarossa, helping the British evacuate to Egypt and then continuing a bloody resistance battle).

However, you stated that no country helped us before 1944. The Greeks did. Thus you were wrong.

 

[Two Professors]

The second worst user name/actual user accuracy after Two Professors.

One talks himself incessantly into corners by trying to sound clever, the complete opposite of cunning. The other is almost eye wateringly stupid to the point where you keep thinking it's a joke, but it's not.

Sssshhhhhhh,you'll spoil my fun.

 

[Two Professors]

I'm sure someone more informed than me will come along to explain why you're wrong as usual. But in any case, that's one country out of dozens of examples.

Still, at least we now know you are aware that France is in Europe, which is a little surprising.

See,you can still learn new things if you make the effort.I love the French people,their food,wine,culture and have enjoyed many holidays there.I don't like their politics or politicians,or their habit of kow-towing to Germany,and expecting others to bail them out.

 

[Two Professors]

Certainly some of them surrendered (after flight valiantly, delaying Operation Barbarossa, helping British evacuate to Egypt and then continuing a bloody resistance battle).

However, you stated that no country helped us before 1944. The Greeks did. Thus you were wrong.

Let's just agree to disagree!

 

[A1X]

If a country like ours - with the might of an empire behind it, and with the advantage of being surround by water - genuinely considered appeasement before going to war with Germany, what makes you think nations on the European landmass with vastly inferior firepower and numbers had any choice beyond accepting German control?

The Dutch fought but were hopelessly overpowered. So did the Greeks, the French, the Poles, and so on. Many of these went underground. Why are you so thick as to need this spelling out?

The main reason for appeasement was primarily that Britain thought war wouldn't happen because the Germans wouldn't be mad enough to go to war with them, and by the late 1930s were hopelessly unprepared for war. There was a massive push in armaments production after the invasion of the Sudetenland but by September 1939 Britain was hopelessly unprepared for war, and had it not been for the phoney war Britain would have struggled to compete. Indeed had there been some form of land crossing to allow the Wehrmacht into Britain in 1940 Britain would probably have lost.

 

[Rodney Thomas]

Let's just agree to disagree!

Meh, no skin off my back.

 

[A1X]

Oh dear,the reason appeasement was so necessary was it gave us time to manufacture the aircraft needed to defeat the Luftwaffe.The French were far more powerful than Germany,but badly led by their politicians.The Germans hadn't conquered half of France when they surrendered.

Partially true, however there was also a level of hubris about Britain's approach. "Germany would never attack us, don't they know who we are?" Perfidious Albion is not a new concept in international diplomacy.

As to the French being more powerful, this is a dubious claim. If you think of it purely in terms of the Western front possibly, bearing in mind much of the German war machine was already in the East subjugating Poland et al. But the French were more militarily naive than politically so, they put too much faith in the Maginot Line, which the Germans promptly walked around through the low countries.

 

[KZNSeagull]

Second referendum amendment will not now be put forward as Labour leadership will not support it.

 

[A1X]

Your total lack of any real knowledge on the war is no surprise to me.'Ill informed clump' is a new one on me.Is it an English version of thicket?

What The Clamp has written is true, your denigration of the resistance movements across Europe does you no favours. Their help in extricating spies and escaped POWs was immense, and they also helped lay the ground for tactical missions such as Operation Deadstick.

 

[cunning fergus]

I see from this morning's news programmes all the Brexiters understand how Airbus works better than Airbus understands how Airbus works.

Guess we can add this to all the other industries they understand better than the people who actually work in that industry?

No different then from Dyson? This not about leave or remain this is about capitalism and manoeuvring to extract maximum profit for shareholders. It was not that long ago that Airbus lost a dispute at WTO because it was in receipt of £22bn (approx) of subsidies from 4 Govs including the UK.

So, if they go, (like others have before while in the EU) they can pay back the loan in full.

Trouble is capitalists like their political handmaidens are liars.....

https://www.bloombergquint.com/poli...y-in-post-brexit-u-k-for-a-very-long-time.amp

There is no truth, merely words on a balance sheet.

 

[Baldseagull]

Recommended reading:

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/legis...nger-global-actor/file-european-defence-union

https://www.pism.pl/publications/bulletin/no-162-1233

https://carnegieeurope.eu/2017/12/05/is-there-hope-for-eu-foreign-policy-pub-74909

https://www.euractiv.com/section/de...s-macron-proposes-eu-collective-defence-plan/

The possibility of a common defence policy is enshrined in the Lisbon Treaty's Article 42. I have already posted what the hurdles that possibility has to overcome are, to become reality, and that we cannot be forced into anything we don't want to sign up to.
Bar the first link, all of your links re iterate this and some suggest ways to achieve greater co operation in Foreign policy without there being a loss of individual member control.
Please understand that in the same way as there is no NATO army, there will not be an EU Army, all that there is, is commitment to work more closely together and for the EU to bear some of the cost of joint operations that are for the benefit of the wider EU. It really is not the case that an EU citizen will ever be able to join an EU army, they can join their national army, and may be sent on EU operations by that nations command, just as they do for NATO or UN operations.