[Politics] Brexit

[ManOfSussex]

What I find bizarre is previously remainers kept saying the plans for an EU army were a lie by the leave side - project fear if you like. Yet here we are with the EU planning an army. And not a single remainer has held their hands up and said 'oh, I was wrong'. I wonder what other remainer lies will be exposed over the coming months ?

Tell me about this EU army then. How advanced is the planning? When are Austria, Malta The Republic of Ireland, Finland and Sweden all signing up for it/being dragged into it against their will?

 

[Westdene Seagull]

How are they lies Westdene, they might be wrong in a prediction of the future, but unless you are crediting these people with some kind of time travel, aren't they just wrong rather than lies?

I'd happily subscribe to your theory if it wasn't for remainers calling the leavers 'predictions' of an EU army lies.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Tell me about this EU army then. How advanced is the planning? When are Austria, Malta The Republic of Ireland, Finland and Sweden all signing up for it/being dragged into it against their will?

Are you suggesting Macron and Merkel were living in a fantasy land when they both highlighted the next step in European security would be an EU army ? I suggest you ask the EU how far advanced the plans are or of course you could deny there are any plans for an EU army.

 

[pastafarian]

What I find bizarre is previously remainers kept saying the plans for an EU army were a lie by the leave side - project fear if you like. Yet here we are with the EU planning an army. And not a single remainer has held their hands up and said 'oh, I was wrong'. I wonder what other remainer lies will be exposed over the coming months ?

And some of them now arguing that a EU army is probably a good thing and asking for evidence why it is bad, or saying we can opt out of it when they form it .........when all along they were saying its never going to happen, they are not even thinking about it.......its all leaver lies..
I remember a post on here before the referendum showing an article that said the EU bigwigs had instructed all talk of an EU army to stop until after the referendum, that was dismissed as balls too and rubbish..........guess what happens post referendum,more talk of an EU army and a step toward closer miltary ties with the signing of the Permanent Structured Cooperation (PESCO) ..... i wish i had a crystal ball to remember who posted it.
Its about time remainers just accept this is the way it is heading and fully embrace this EU project along with the federal superstate dream or admit they are leavers too and want to get off the bus. All in or all out as another poster has put it.
Considering so many remainers have very limited positives to say about the EU and that many remainers, even on here say its screwed but we must stay in and reform it so the federal ideologues dont take over i think cunning F might have a point, lets have an IN OUT vote to just leave or fully commit to everything, Euro, Schengen, Army, Tax, Governance, Courts....the full Euro superstate or out..........i know what my money is on

 

[ManOfSussex]

Are you suggesting Macron and Merkel were living in a fantasy land when they both highlighted the next step in European security would be an EU army ? I suggest you ask the EU how far advanced the plans are or of course you could deny there are any plans for an EU army.

No, I'm suggesting you're clutching at straws as usual to attempt to justify your leave vote and ****ing this country up in the process and ignore the fact that we would veto being in it anyway and other countries with staunch policies of neutrality would have have far stronger objections to it than us. I heard Merkel use the word 'could.' Like you I didn't read any concrete plans, because there aren't any.

 

[pastafarian]

I'll take that as a NO....its not good for Britain Dyson moving his HQ to S'pore

Take it anyway you like chum, i have offered no opinion either way.
Dyson however has said in the article moving is still a positive for his investment in the UK. If you dont agree with him you are entitled to say why he is wrong.

 

[Bold Seagull]

I'd happily subscribe to your theory if it wasn't for remainers calling the leavers 'predictions' of an EU army lies.

Did all remainers call the prediction of an EU army a lie? I feel you could have won your point without repeating the same mistakes.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Considering so many remainers have very limited positives to say about the EU and that many remainers, even on here say its screwed but we must stay in and reform it so the federal ideologues dont take over i think cunning F might have a point, lets have an IN OUT vote to just leave or fully commit to everything, Euro, Schengen, Army, Tax, Governance, Courts....the full Euro superstate or out..........i know what my money is on

You're supporting another referendum as well then? Interesting turn of events.

 

[Baker lite]

Tell me about this EU army then. How advanced is the planning? When are Austria, Malta The Republic of Ireland, Finland and Sweden all signing up for it/being dragged into it against their will?

Whenever the Germans tell them to I suppose..



On our way.

 

[pastafarian]

No, I'm suggesting you're clutching at straws as usual to attempt to justify your leave vote and ****ing this country up in the process and ignore the fact that we would veto being in it anyway and other countries with staunch policies of neutrality would have have far stronger objections to it than us. I heard Merkel use the word 'could.' Like you I didn't read any concrete plans, because there aren't any.

You are of course right, we could indeed veto being involved in a EU army if it was formed.
You dont seem to want one either which is good, but can you not recognise other EU leaders are keen on such a structure as well as current influencial figures such as as Verhofstadt and others.
You are right that it can be formed without full membership participation, but what then, gradually others feel obliged to become involved in case they miss out on procurement ? Miss out on future agreed funding? Its another stealth integration. I find the whole thing worrying even if we are not part of a future EU army. 27 states in charge of European military security fighting bureaucratically over what decision to do next when they all have differing views and an immediate decision is vital......no thanks. Just look at the EU track record on trying to reach consensus on the migration crisis, months of wrangling and still countries now not agreeing with EU policy. Too many chefs.

 

[pastafarian]

You're supporting another referendum as well then? Interesting turn of events.

No i am not.......its an appaling idea to tell the public to vote again
But if parliament crumbes and fails and cant decide what to do and chickens out of its obligations to leave like cowards and forces another vote lets go Leave or full in......no messing around....Euro schengen army tax social justice governance everything......the full monty, no vetos or exceptions.......what would you vote ?

 

[pastafarian]

slightly surprised remainers are not tearing shreds over what Dyson has put out in his statement........the vitriol from yesterday has gone a bit quiet.

 

[BBassic]

Last week:
https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/matt-stadlen/iain-duncan-smith-no-jobs-lost-hard-brexit/

Iain Duncan Smith has said not a single job would be lost in a hard Brexit, insisting concerns fears of leaving with no deal are "nonsense".

Speaking to Matt Stadlen, the former work and pensions secretary and Conservative leader said: "I believe not a single job will be lost, I think this is all complete nonsense".


Today:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...xit-process-a-disgrace-threatens-to-leave-u-k
Airbus SE said it could be forced to move future investments out of the U.K. in case of a no-deal divorce from the European Union, slamming the “madness” of Brexit supporters who assume the planemaker won’t abandon Britain.

“If there is a no-deal Brexit, we at Airbus will have to make potentially very harmful decisions for the U.K.,” said Chief Executive Officer Tom Enders, who has been one of the most outspoken business leaders on the topic. “Please don’t listen to the Brexiteers’ madness which asserts that, because we have huge plants here, we will not move and we will always be here. They are wrong.”


That's Airbus who directly employ 14,000 people and supports another 110,000.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

Airbus threatening to pull out the U.K.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/business-46984229

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

This Brittany ferries thing is odd. Speaking to a mate taking his kids over to Normandy at Easter to visit their grandma and he got a mail saying that his booking had been cancelled and he should apply to his travel agent to get a refund on the costs he has had to incur.

The travel agent contacted him to say that were inundated with claims from people as the operators were not dealing direct with the public! And they would have to join the queue but as brexit is not an actual defined legal action, the ferry companies are not bound to pay anything back apart from the original ticket...so no compensation.

To be fair he doesn't need the money, but then again, he gets a mail from Brittany ferries saying that they could rebook later on in the year and they would keep the money he has paid against that future cost! I wond if they will use that as an excuse to hold off paying back tickets people had paid for.

We were supposed to be playing golf in Brittany in may and our travel agent has recommended looking elsewhere possibly in the uk.

Without looking at it properly I imagine it’s too do with the companies Terms and Conditions, they will just call it something that won’t incur compensation claims.

If it was down to Brexit and it’s nit covered in the T&Cs they would end up paying more.

 

[Trufflehound]

Dutch are loving this. .

To be fair, most Dutch people are not loving it or gloating. They (we) are simply staring in open-mouthed incredulity as a normally good ally insists on shooting itself repeatedly in the face. For no real reason other than to appease the extreme factions of the Tory party.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

slightly surprised remainers are not tearing shreds over what Dyson has put out in his statement........the vitriol from yesterday has gone a bit quiet.

Because it’s rubbish?

 

[fanseagull]

To be fair, most Dutch people are not loving it or gloating. They (we) are simply staring in open-mouthed incredulity as a normally good ally insists on shooting itself repeatedly in the face. For no real reason other than to appease the extreme factions of the Tory party.

.... and of course because a substantial number of voters are determined to ensure this self harm is actioned.

 

[pastafarian]

Because it’s rubbish?

sort of what i meant when i said not tearing shreds.
the sum total so far of tearing shreds out of what he has said is rubbish and pr stunt.

Never mind eh, im sure the real dissection of his words and article is coming full throttle after lunch

 

[Baldseagull]

I presume though that the same “some people” do not say we could have two referendums, the second one to come after a two choice first referendum that had already occurred on whether we should Leave or Remain in a EU according to renegotiated membership terms.
And I presume the same “some people” do not say if the first referendum delivered a Leave decision the second referendum could happen following the negotiations to carry out the withdrawal leaving process?
You know, as opposed to renegotiating terms of membership staying in rather than negotiating terms to Leave that might occur from some other different type of scenario altogether that was being debated years ago on a 3 way referendum
I suspect those same “ some people” say there should not be a second referendum after a first referendum gives a definitive IN or OUT? And have always had this position
Im sure no one would be fooled into thinking that relevant to the scenario we have today or even another scenario that the same "some people" were saying we could have that second referendum after those withdrawal negotiations to leave are completed and after a decision to Leave.
Im sure no one thinks renegotiations to stay in are the same thing as negotiations to leave after a definitive referendum decision to Leave.
No one is so quick off the mark easily led by a few cherry picked words in a video to think that is what was being said by "some people"………...are they?

You are quite wrong, some people see the principle of not committing to something on a vague notion, and having a look at what the costs and benefits might be before committing in all situations. Some others maintain the principle only when it suits their agenda though.


Personally, I would prefer parliament to just rescind A50, and say we had a look, it looked shit so we are staying put, but, I accept that as a referendum narrowly gave support to the idea of leaving, there may be a number of people that feel they have been ignored, despite Parliament doing little else but discuss aspects of how to leave for 2.5 years. So, to ensure the democratic legitimacy of the next step is not questioned, we should hold a referendum on what we know now, the Withdrawal agreement and the final deal outline, which parliament may yet force the government to alter, to an outline that has single market and/or customs union inclusion. Once Parliament has an agreed direction of travel, we should be asked if we want that, or would prefer to remain, as many leavers have expressed the view that remaining would be preferable than some versions of leave.
You never know, some people might find that a second referendum is their best chance of getting the type of Brexit they want, and they may suddenly find that the principle of deciding on the fact rather than the notion, returns to them.