[Politics] Brexit

[JC Footy Genius]

A second vote isn't a "way out". If people vote to remain then we no longer have a "Brexit" problem. But we have a new one, perhaps a greater one. A crisis of confidence in democracy itself and the dividing political crack in this country becomes a fissure. If people vote to leave again then it's full circle and we are back where we started two years ago.

People don't want a "way out", they want the vote respected. Respecting the vote is more important than anything. The consequences of leaving the EU without a deal in place may be somewhat problematic, but the consequences of not respecting the vote are worse.

The real problem here is that the HoC find themselves, by a majority, in disagreement with the people. Only one side will have their will respected. The political class or the people. & I cannot overstate how severe a problem we would face if it turns out that we have a government for, of, and by, the politial class, rather than the people.

We can get through a Brexit without a deal on WTO terms. I'm not sure how we can get through a crisis of confidence in democracy itself.

Well said sir. Unfortunately you are wasting your time trying to engage with the extreme blinkered undemocratic loons who frequent this thread. On a brighter note I see on the other Brexit related threads numerous remain voters acknowledging the importance of respecting first democratic principles that have been a vital pillar of sustaining our/any democracy.

 

[Bodian]

Did they not teach you the meaning of the word 'if' at school ?

Ah yes - on a closer reading, I see what you mean!

 

[JC Footy Genius]

You are absolutely correct, admitting you have a problem is the first step to a cure, well done.

Form an orderly queue ...

https://www.politico.eu/article/brexit-anxiety-disorder-britain-middle-class/

 

[albion68]

You are wrong. Anyone can leave. No obstacles. It’s what the alternatives are unpalatable.

The obstacles are the remainers and Theresa May who is one doing a week deal with EU no wonder they were saying there was nothing else to negotiate good deal for them .

 

[pastafarian]

Of all the misleading stats in this whole sorry charade, this one is one I always enjoy seeing pop up as it ignores the single most fundamental flaw with our entire voting system.

Let's say, for example, there is a Labour held constituency where the voter breakdown is like this;

Labour - 35%
Conservative - 30%
UKIP - 20%
Lib Dem - 10%
BNP - 5%

In that scenario, Labour wins the seat as they have the most votes. However, if all the Labour voters and all the Lib Dem voters vote Remain, and all the other voters vote Leave, then the seat result is a 55% win for Leave. But in here, not one of the Leave voters voted Labour, so it being a Labour held Leave seat is basically irrelevant as none of the leavers voted Labour. But it also shows that if that Labour MP backs Remain then there is actually nothing the Leave voters could do about that.

It's a simplistic analysis but it proves my point that the party holding a seat and the way it voted in the referendum are basically two separate things which don't really tally up, so that statistic is basically pointless.

Genius………you have invented some breakdown figures in one imaginary seat to deliberately fit your theory across all seats and declared not one voter who voted Labour in your imaginary seat voted to Leave.
Its beyond simplistic and proves nothing. You also miss the point that your so called “remain backing” MP in your imaginary labour constituency in 2017 was elected on a Labour manifesto to respect the 2016 vote and follow through on the decision to Leave the EU.

If you want to prove
“61% of all Labour MPs elected in 2017 are MPs who have a seat in constituencies that voted to Leave.”
is wrong, knock yourself out, but don’t do it by inventing a scenario from one seat. Make sure you let Full Fact know too that you have debunked them and their links and methodology are inaccurate.

https://fullfact.org/europe/did-maj...bour-constituencies-vote-leave-eu-referendum/

You should have tried using more of what he said for context and not just using a few cherry picked words in an image to imply he meant do the referendum again.
0/10
And the author of that image may well have sourced those words from his website in 2017 and said 2017 to make it appear he said it recently, but he gave that “Europe its time to decide” speech in Nov 2012. So again, how was he referencing, change your mind and do the referendum again, 4 years before it happened.
Another 0/10
https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2012/11/invitation-to-david-davis-lecture-on-europe.html


"In democratic nations we hold regular meaningful elections where voters can stick with what they have or wipe the slate clean.
Crucial to this principle of people power is the rule that a government cannot bind its successors.
For example, if a party won an election promising to cut taxes, then it would have a mandate to do so.
But if that party could then pass a law saying no government could ever raise taxes again, it would undermine the right of the electorate to change its mind in future.
However, the EU has no such concept.
What it has is the acquis communautaire, a doctrine which states that the powers the EU has acquired belong to the EU forever.
This is not just undemocratic, it is anti-democratic.
Anti-democratic because through this doctrine the EU specifically seeks to bypass the views of voters.
If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy."

 

[pastafarian]

Wrong again. I agree that the referendum wasn't binding BUT since then Parliament HAS passed a law, which is still in place, that says we WILL leave on the 29th March ..... unless another law is passed.

Correct
And the date contained in the Withdrawal Act can be amended by new law to a different day, (for example for extending A50 negotiations to leave) with a change in the law via secondary legislation.(after agreement with EU on an extension)
The withdrawal Act and the date the treaties cease to exist still remains in place just with a different date.
Revoking Article 50 all together would require a change in the law with primary legislation.
Also the recent ruling said that whilst we can revoke A50 unilaterally the purpose for doing so must be to remain in the EU and cant be used to buy more time to think up a Plan C or D,(ie revoking it then invoking it again soon after to continue the same talks)
Revoking A50 kills the current brexit dead,

 

[Baldseagull]

Well said sir. Unfortunately you are wasting your time trying to engage with the extreme blinkered undemocratic loons who frequent this thread. On a brighter note I see on the other Brexit related threads numerous remain voters acknowledging the importance of respecting first democratic principles that have been a vital pillar of sustaining our/any democracy.

Which pillars are those then, Russian funding, illegal spending, illegal data collection, lies and bullshit?

 

[nicko31]

Boris the wanker

“The claim: Boris Johnson told a Channel 4 News reporter that he "didn't say anything about Turkey during the referendum. Since I made no remarks…I can't disown them".
Reality Check verdict: Boris Johnson talked about the issue of Turkey joining the EU several times in the lead-up to 23 June 2016 and was co-signatory of a letter to the prime minister warning about Turkish membership a week before the vote”
Bbc

Most people ignore him now, even many leavers. Compulsive liar, it may work in the US but not with us

 

[fanseagull]

Most people ignore him now, even many leavers. Compulsive liar, it may work in the US but not with us

I say again, I hope you are right..... but we live in such bizarre times I couldn't be sure of anything!

 

[pastafarian]

More bollocks and assumption. What a clown you are, Pasta. What a clown your are.

You made a mistake about competences and directly applicable laws, you can try and weasel out of your error as much as you like but it still stands.

 

[BadFish]

Nigel Farage is not, never has been, and almost certainly never will be, an MP.

He's stood for election many times, and never come close.

Because he is a lying, self-interested little toad.

Over qualified?

 

[btnbelle]

There is no minimum turnout.

There is no 2nd referendum...

 

[Baldseagull]

Genius………you have invented some breakdown figures in one imaginary seat to deliberately fit your theory across all seats and declared not one voter who voted Labour in your imaginary seat voted to Leave.
Its beyond simplistic and proves nothing. You also miss the point that your so called “remain backing” MP in your imaginary labour constituency in 2017 was elected on a Labour manifesto to respect the 2016 vote and follow through on the decision to Leave the EU.

If you want to prove
“61% of all Labour MPs elected in 2017 are MPs who have a seat in constituencies that voted to Leave.”
is wrong, knock yourself out, but don’t do it by inventing a scenario from one seat. Make sure you let Full Fact know too that you have debunked them and their links and methodology are inaccurate.

https://fullfact.org/europe/did-maj...bour-constituencies-vote-leave-eu-referendum/







You should have tried using more of what he said for context and not just using a few cherry picked words in an image to imply he meant do the referendum again.
0/10
And the author of that image may well have sourced those words from his website in 2017 and said 2017 to make it appear he said it recently, but he gave that “Europe its time to decide” speech in Nov 2012. So again, how was he referencing, change your mind and do the referendum again, 6 years before it happened.
Another 0/10
https://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2012/11/invitation-to-david-davis-lecture-on-europe.html


"In democratic nations we hold regular meaningful elections where voters can stick with what they have or wipe the slate clean.
Crucial to this principle of people power is the rule that a government cannot bind its successors.
For example, if a party won an election promising to cut taxes, then it would have a mandate to do so.
But if that party could then pass a law saying no government could ever raise taxes again, it would undermine the right of the electorate to change its mind in future.
However, the EU has no such concept.
What it has is the acquis communautaire, a doctrine which states that the powers the EU has acquired belong to the EU forever.
This is not just undemocratic, it is anti-democratic.
Anti-democratic because through this doctrine the EU specifically seeks to bypass the views of voters.
If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy."

We have one of the most centralised governments in the developed world, what process exists for the local authorities to recover powers taken by central government?

 

[Gwylan]

I say again, I hope you are right..... but we live in such bizarre times I couldn't be sure of anything!

One of my cousins posted on Facebook this week that Johnson is the only politician she'd vote for as she's the only one who's totally honest.

There are quite few people detached from reality out there ...

 

[btnbelle]

Great to hear all your views, even if I don't agree with them...

I guess for the nation, Brexit is a subject that we all have made up our minds about. No amount of argument or debate seems to change peoples minds.

If people don't want no deal, then we need to come together and find a deal that allows us to leave while respecting, an end to free movement and a right to make our own trade deals. After we have left the EU, I really hope that the remain voters can move on from their denial.

Hopefully a time will come when, we can all accept life outside of the EU. Then we can all pull together again and build a brighter future for the UK.

In the words of Jo Cox, we have more in common than that, that divides us... Brexit may divide us but we all want the best life possible for our families.

I am going to leave this thread there...

 

[pastafarian]

We have one of the most centralised governments in the developed world, what process exists for the local authorities to recover powers taken by central government?

What has that question got to do with my post pointing out that user firstly posted a load of gibberish to try and debunk the figures around the % of Labour MPs and secondly posted a meme trying to prove we should re-do the referendum, that he didn’t understand the context of the cherry picked words from or the date when it was said.
Sod all, go and be irrelevantly argumentative with someone else

 

[BadFish]

I am on the outside looking in at this issue and am firmly on the fence as to what should happen. It seems to me that the problem being faced here is because of a chronic lack of information about what people actually want. The original question was no where near enough to inform a decent decision. The original question should have only been the beginning of the discussion with the British people. I hate to agree with Teresa May but she is right about one thing, it is nigh on impossible to negotiate a suitable deal with no idea of what people actually want. Like walking into a clothes shop and being asked if you want shirts or trousers and then expecting the assistant to bring you your preferred item first go (probably times this by 1,000,000).

The idea of a second referendum is clearly not going to be tolerated by the Leave side and let's face it an exit at this point is not going to be tolerated by the Remain side. Someone on the TV the other day said that this issue is going to dominate the UK for the rest of our lifetimes so why not try to deal with as many of the concerns and issues as possible? So instead of a second referendum maybe another information gathering method would be appropriate. Without listening to what people actually want no one can possibly deliver something even remotely palatable across the population.

 

[Raleigh Chopper]

One of my cousins posted on Facebook this week that Johnson is the only politician she'd vote for as she's the only one who's totally honest.

There are quite few people detached from reality out there ...

Customer of mine this week.
"We should just get out, we have won 2 world wars we can do it again".

 

[The Man from Del Monte]

Yes.

 

[Mental Lental]

Quite.

I've reached the point now where I'm absolutely done with pretending that Leave supporters are not thick as ****, so as not to offend or patronise.

A significant proportion remind us day, after day, that they really are utter morons without the most basic grasp of the issues at hand.

Oh they're absolutely thick as mince. I gave up round about 3 months after the referendum result. I went through a stage of calling them a variety of names before finally deciding to give up and just ignore them.

Every last one of them........