[Politics] Brexit

[portslade seagull]

What part of my post that you're referring to is incorrect and why?

I'm not saying that, I'm asking you if you believe everything you post as 100% gospel or do you post somewhat to tongue in cheek

 

[ManOfSussex]

I'm not saying that, I'm asking you if you believe everything you post as 100% gospel or do you post somewhat to tongue in cheek

I would have thought it rather obvious that my line on the people of Kent looking forward to Operation Brock next year was sarcastic. Phase 4 of Operation Stack back in 2015 was horrendous. The infrastructure, or lack of it, issues surrounding Brexit are well known and acknowledged across the political spectrum in Kent - Charlie Elphicke, Mike Whiting, Henry Bolton, Vince Maple et al - they all agree on this and are exasperated at the lack of action from Westminster.

 

[larus]

'WTO rules allow for no physical infrastructure on a border if there a political reasons not to....'


This is actually a very complex issue. I claim no expertise but I believe that 'learned' opinion is split on this. The 'Most Favoured Nation' principle could be the sticking point - eg if the UK had 'unique' border arrangements with one country (Eire) the matter could be the subject of dispute from other countries who could claim that they are being disadvantaged. I understand (maybe imperfectly) that such a challenge could be brought to the WTO.


The extract below might not prove anything other than that it is indeed a complex issue! It's from a University of Sussex researcher and explores the 'informal' (blind eye) approach to post Brexit trade:

Turning a blind eye would necessitate admitting goods from Ireland tariff-free. The Most Favoured Nation (MFN) principle prohibits the UK from giving special tariff rates to one WTO Member that it does not extend to all of the others. There is an exception for Free Trade Areas, in which tariff barriers are eliminated for substantially all trade. Thus such an arrangement would only be possible as an extension of a zero-tariff UK-EU Free Trade Area; otherwise it would violate WTO MFN obligations.
Another WTO obligation, GATT Article X, would also prove problematic. In the words of the WTO Appellate Body, it ‘establishes certain minimum standards for transparency and procedural fairness in the administration of trade regulations’. It also requires that there ‘uniformity’ in the administration of trade-related regulation. In other words, countries should not treat some goods – or some countries – much differently than others in the administration of customs procedures. There are a dozen or so disputes focusing on this requirement. A light-touch approach applied only on one border could certainly prompt another.
Article 7 of the Trade Facilitation Agreement, which recently entered into force, also obligates each WTO Member to ‘apply common customs procedures and uniform documentation requirements for release and clearance of goods throughout its territory.’

Let's assume then that we have to implement a physical border (and let's ignore timescales etc). If we do, then so will the EU. But the EU have already told ROI that there will not be any physical infrastructure.

The EU can't have it both ways: they can't tell the UK to solve the border issue (we can tell them we're leaving on WTO rules and there's sweet FA they can do) and also tell the ROI that there won't be physical infrastructure on the border if there's WTO rules as it's their border to police, not ours.

This is the point which remainers don't seem to accept. Border controls are there to monitor what a country imports. The UK will be exporting to ROI, so they become ROI/EUs imports.

 

[portslade seagull]

I would have thought it rather obvious that my line on the people of Kent looking forward to Operation Brock next year was sarcastic. Phase 4 of Operation Stack back in 2015 was horrendous. The infrastructure, or lack of it, issues surrounding Brexit are well known and acknowledged across the political spectrum in Kent - Charlie Elphicke, Mike Whiting, Henry Bolton, Vince Maple et al - they all agree on this and are exasperated at the lack of action from


Ok we will have to see how it pans out. To believe everything you read as fact before the event seems rather odd.

 

[portslade seagull]

Let's assume then that we have to implement a physical border (and let's ignore timescales etc). If we do, then so will the EU. But the EU have already told ROI that there will not be any physical infrastructure.

The EU can't have it both ways: they can't tell the UK to solve the border issue (we can tell them we're leaving on WTO rules and there's sweet FA they can do) and also tell the ROI that there won't be physical infrastructure on the border if there's WTO rules as it's their border to police, not ours.

This is the point which remainers don't seem to accept. Border controls are for what a country imports. The UK will be exporting to ROI, so there are the the ROI/EUs imports.

Give up Larus it's the fault of Brexit as it was written in the paper as fact

 

[larus]

Give up Larus it's the fault of Brexit as it was written in the paper as fact

Have you noticed that they never like to answer certain questions. The other one I couldn't get anyone to answer was who on the Leave side was actively involved with the negotiations. David Davis was sidestepped by TM as she told the EU to deal with Olly Robbins. They don't want to admit it's remainers running the show.

 

[The Clamp]

Have you noticed that they never like to answer certain questions. The other one I couldn't get anyone to answer was who on the Leave side was actively involved with the negotiations. David Davis was sidestepped by TM as she told the EU to deal with Olly Robbins. They don't want to admit it's remainers running the show.

Remainers running the show trying to clear up the mess Leavers have left the country in. You voted for this mess, own it.

 

[larus]

Remainers running the show trying to clear up the mess Leavers have left the country in. You voted for this mess, own it.

Do you think that different negotiators can achieve different outcomes? Yes or No?

If it's yes, then who the negotiators are is important.
If it's no, then we should stop now, as we already must know what the outcome of the negotiations will be.

Therefore, it is 100% relevant who the negotiators are and what their personal goal is. The issue is we have people who are trying to thwart Brexit leading the negotiations and the preparations for the country to handle No Deal.

They are the facts, but I know you can't handle them.

 

[ManOfSussex]

Ok we will have to see how it pans out. To believe everything you read as fact before the event seems rather odd.

When we leave The EU and the European Customs Union, these things will be required and will take years to build and cost a great deal. Just The Lower Thames Crossing alone, if it's ever built, is earmarked to cost £6 Billion. Kent Police believe Operation Brock will be every bit as chaotic as Operation Stack, Phase 4 was in 2015 and potentially go on for years, not weeks as happened 3 years ago.

The Dover MP commissioned his own report last year on what's required on Day 1 after Brexit - http://www.elphicke.com/downloads/ready-on-day-one--meeting-the-brexit-borders-challenge.pdf

Still, lets just leave it all and not do anything and see how it pans out instead. We'll be fine.

 

[daveinprague]

Probably, possibly, maybe, I imagine, what could happen is etc etc

 

[The Clamp]

Do you think that different negotiators can achieve different outcomes? Yes or No?

If it's yes, then who the negotiators are is important.
If it's no, then we should stop now, as we already must know what the outcome of the negotiations will be.

Therefore, it is 100% relevant who the negotiators are and what their personal goal is. The issue is we have people who are trying to thwart Brexit leading the negotiations and the preparations for the country to handle No Deal.

They are the facts, but I know you can't handle them.

Oh I can handle it. You make far too many assumptions. Yes, the negotiations are being fouled up. Hopefully that will lead to Brexit being abandoned. It's a risky strategy as we could leave with no deal. Is it a risk worth taking? I hope so.

The other facts are that your vote lead directly to this mess. Remainers look churlish trying to deny that fact. Yet, deny it they do.

If Remain had won on the day would we be dealing with this Brexit mess now? Yes or No?

And that if it were Leave supporters negotiating, it would still be a calamity because it's a fundamentally flawed objective bought about by political greed and campaign lies. It is destined to fail.

Can I also make a suggestion as to why people don't answer your questions? It's because they come hand in hand with insults and assumptions. They also come in the form of aggressive demands and mockery. People, quite rightly refuse to engage with that. You might want to ponder that.

 

[larus]

Oh I can handle it. You make far too many assumptions. Yes, the negotiations are being fouled up. Hopefully that will lead to Brexit being abandoned. It's a risky strategy as we could leave with no deal. Is it a risk worth taking? I hope so.

The other facts are that your vote lead directly to this mess. Remainers look churlish trying to deny that fact. Yet, deny it they do.

If Remain had won on the day would we be dealing with this Brexit mess now? Yes or No?

And that if it were Leave supporters negotiating, it would still be a calamity because it's a fundamentally flawed objective bought about by political greed and campaign lies. It is destined to fail.

Can I also make a suggestion as to why people don't answer your questions? It's because they come hand in hand with insults and assumptions. They also come in the form of aggressive demands and mockery. People, quite rightly refuse to engage with that. You might want to ponder that.

Finally you accept that the negotiations are being fouled up by remainers. That's good to know.

Brexit won't be stopped. Both parties are committed to it and it would undermine democracy if it was stopped. There is already a disillusionment with the political class in this country - such an action would exacerbate this situation.

As for Brexit negotiations having to fail - I disagree. The problem is that we've never had a fallback position which the EU really believed. For all of TMs "No deal is better than a bad deal" claptrap, her and Hammond have made no preparation. This is where the Remain supporters fail to acknowledge the frustration of the Leave voters. All that the UK have done is grovel to the EU rather than saying "We would like a deal with you, but are OK with not having one and are preparing for that scenario".

As regards to you point regarding engaging with people - you constantly throw insults at people yet complain when handed out to you. You should get your own house in order first before trying to comment on others.

 

[Two Professors]

Brilliant. Just ignore all the very likely scenarios put forward by MoS, a man with experience in the matter and a fair bit of knowledge , and hope they have it all in hand (on the basis that they get paid more!!!!). This is why nobody takes your mob seriously. Quite the opposite.

cue deflection and personal insults.

So are you saying that all these very highly paid officials,university graduates all so the only ones that should be allowed to vote according to you,should ignore the job they have been employed to do,and not put in place the things needed to cope with non-standard situations in their little empires?Tempest,fire,flood,plague,locusts,World War 111,Aliens,Brexit traffic jams,nothing to do wiv us guv,blame them thick idiots.Don't worry,nanny will be along soon little Pluke.

 

[Two Professors]

Probably, possibly, maybe, I imagine, what could happen is etc etc

Awright Dave?Have another spliff

 

[The Clamp]

Finally you accept that the negotiations are being fouled up by remainers. That's good to know.

Brexit won't be stopped. Both parties are committed to it and it would undermine democracy if it was stopped. There is already a disillusionment with the political class in this country - such an action would exacerbate this situation.

As for Brexit negotiations having to fail - I disagree. The problem is that we've never had a fallback position which the EU really believed. For all of TMs "No deal is better than a bad deal" claptrap, her and Hammond have made no preparation. This is where the Remain supporters fail to acknowledge the frustration of the Leave voters. All that the UK have done is grovel to the EU rather than saying "We would like a deal with you, but are OK with not having one and are preparing for that scenario".

As regards to you point regarding engaging with people - you constantly throw insults at people yet complain when handed out to you. You should get your own house in order first before trying to comment on others.

Do you know, it actually seemed like you had turned a corner. taken something on board and decided to try and enter civil discourse. But no, same old guff at the end. Now I remember why I don't bother with you.
TBTC

 

[The Clamp]

So are you saying that all these very highly paid officials,university graduates all so the only ones that should be allowed to vote according to you,should ignore the job they have been employed to do,and not put in place the things needed to cope with non-standard situations in their little empires?Tempest,fire,flood,plague,locusts,World War 111,Aliens,Brexit traffic jams,nothing to do wiv us guv,blame them thick idiots.Don't worry,nanny will be along soon little Pluke.

I'll ignore all your usual insults and flummery and get to the core. No, nobody is saying they won't be doing their jobs. We are saying there is simply not enough time left for them to do their jobs properly, certainly not enough time to get any of it in place.

Also, when have I stated that the only people that should be allowed to vote are Highly paid officials and university graduates? When have I ever written that?

 

[Two Professors]

I'll ignore all your usual insults and flummery and get to the core. No, nobody is saying they won't be doing their jobs. We are saying there is simply not enough time left for them to do their jobs properly, certainly not enough time to get any of it in place.

Don't be sillier than normal.If you read my post, channel port disruption has been going on for many years so the time ploy is a total non-starter.I only insulted you if you are Pluke as well as Nibble/Clamp.So try to explain why you think all these graduates haven't done anything to alleviate the possible problems,without 'flummery'.

 

[The Clamp]

Don't be sillier than normal.If you read my post, channel port disruption has been going on for many years so the time ploy is a total non-starter.I only insulted you if you are Pluke as well as Nibble/Clamp.So try to explain why you think all these graduates haven't done anything to alleviate the possible problems,without 'flummery'.

We had a kid at school, Simon Osborne. He used to sit at the back of the class just twanging a ruler on the side of the desk, was always in detention or on satis for not doing homework or losing his text books and such. Wasn't too bad at cricket but was always getting chucked out of the A team for forgetting kit or missing the mini bus. Got expelled in the end for pissing in a sheep's mouth.
You very much remind me of him.
TBTC

 

[daveinprague]

Awright Dave?Have another spliff

Says an idiot who got emotional about two RyanAir planes being parked at Luton possibly, maybe they will stay there.

 

[The Clamp]

Says an idiot who got emotional about two RyanAir planes being parked at Luton possibly, maybe they will stay there.

They really are getting upset aren't they! For a group of people who profess to being secure whatever happens they sure are getting in a tizzy that their silly questions aren't getting answered. I thought they had it all figured out? What do they need our assistance for?