[Politics] Brexit

[Baldseagull]

Back scratching and arm twisting is why something like the EU will never really work. The fact is different nations have different interests, and that in a nutshell is why nations are better off being independent but voluntarily cooperative with one another, rather than being in a back scratching arm twisting club.

This is no different to what happens inside political Parties in the UK, in Europe it happens more between Parties, as they have more coalition governments. We are set on our two parties, one to rule and one to tell them what a shite job they are doing. It creates a point scoring game of kickabout, whereas cooperation between the parties could prevent half the policies of a Government just being reversed by the next one.

 

[dingodan]

This is no different to what happens inside political Parties in the UK, in Europe it happens more between Parties, as they have more coalition governments. We are set on our two parties, one to rule and one to tell them what a shite job they are doing. It creates a point scoring game of kickabout, whereas cooperation between the parties could prevent half the policies of a Government just being reversed by the next one.

If I understand you correctly, (and I'm not sure that I do) you are saying that we should compromise on what we believe in a little, so that others will compromise on what they believe in a little, and that compromise both ways can help us progress. Correct me if I'm wrong.

If you are saying that, I would say that I'm all for compromise, but it doesn't have to involve anyone giving up on what they believe in. You simply come together on those areas where you find that you agree. You don't allow the areas of disagreement to get in the way of working together on areas of agreement. But this is the complete opposite of the back scratching arm twisting club. It starts from respecting those with whom you disagree, respecting that you disagree, and working together where possible despite those disagreements. That's how voluntary relationships between nations should work, and it's also how political parties should operate.

The point scoring game of kickabout and the back scratching arm twisting club are based on the same kind of mindset.

 

[Mental Lental]

You're putting words in my mouth, don't say "clearly" and then tell me what I think. I don't think the EU government is fascist or evil, I think it makes laws which we have to abide by without democratic accountability.

We are going around in circles because you refuse to accept, that while you may not agree that democratic accountability is important in the making and enforcing of law, to believe that it is important is a perfectly reasonable and understandable position.

Please explain how democratically elected members of the European Parliament are not democratically accountable. Just to help you out I've linked to a page that describes how the EU actually works.....

http://www.lindamcavanmep.org.uk/how-the-eu-works.php

Seems pretty democratic to me but maybe you can enlighten us as to which parts you regard as lacking democratic accountability?

In my humble opinion I think the fact that the EU has proportional representation makes them MORE democratic than the UK's "first past the post, losers bad luck!" system.

But maybe that's just me.

 

[dingodan]

Please explain how democratically elected members of the European Parliament are not democratically accountable. Just to help you out I've linked to a page that describes how the EU actually works.....

http://www.lindamcavanmep.org.uk/how-the-eu-works.php

Seems pretty democratic to me but maybe you can enlighten us to which parts you regard as lacking democratic accountability?

In my humble opinion I think the fact that the EU has proportional representation makes them MORE democratic than the UK's "first past the post, losers bad luck!" system.

But maybe that's just me.

The EU parliament is democratically elected.

Unfortunately the EU parliament doesn't make law. The EU Commission is the only EU body which can initiate legislation, and they are not democratically elected.

 

[Mental Lental]

The EU parliament is democratically elected.

Unfortunately the EU parliament doesn't make law. The EU Commission is the only EU body which can initiate legislation, and they are not democratically elected.

Key word being INITIATE. A Commission proposal only becomes law if it is approved by both a qualified-majority in the EU Council and a simple majority in the European Parliament. They can initiate all the crazy laws they like. They won't become laws unless passed by the democratically elected European parliament.

Please explain how your disgust for an unelected Commission, with only the power to SUGGEST laws, leads you to believe that the UK is better off out of whole union. A union which has passed laws like The Working Time directive, which has provided substantial improvements to quality of life for the British people.

 

[Mental Lental]

In addition, it could be argued that there seems to be a misunderstanding, even from the rare "sensible Brexiteer" regarding the power of the Commission itself.

This misunderstanding about the power of the Commission perhaps stems from a comparison with the British system of government. Unlike the British government, which commands a majority in the House of Commons, the Commission does not command an in-built majority in the EU Council or the European Parliament. Therefore it has to build a coalition issue-by-issue. This puts the Commission in a much weaker position in the EU system than the British government in the UK system.

Also, I'm gonna address this falsehood that the members of the Commission aren't democratically elected. They are elected but in a manner that is different from how the British people elect the UK government.

Under Article 17 of the EU treaty, the Commission President is formally proposed by the European Council (the 28 heads of government of the EU member states), by a qualified-majority vote, and is then ‘elected’ by a majority vote in the European Parliament. In an effort to inject a bit MORE democracy into this process, the main European party families recently proposed rival candidates for the Commission President before the 2014 European Parliament elections. Then, after the centre-right European People’s Party (EPP) won the most seats in the new Parliament, the European Council agreed to propose the EPP’s candidate: Jean-Claude Juncker.

Now, the problem is that the UK has no representation within this new EPP. Do you know why? Because the Tories pulled out of it in 2009. Which meant that in this particular election the British people technically couldn't vote FOR Juncker. Although they still had the power to vote AGAINST him through a veto if the UK parliament so decided (they didn't).

Still with me so far? Most people pass out from boredom by this point...Hey ho let's rumble on.

Once the Commission President is chosen, each EU member state nominates a Commissioner, and each Commissioner is then subject to a hearing in one of the committees of the European Parliament (modelled on US Senate hearings of US Presidential nominees to the US cabinet). If a committee issues a ‘negative opinion’ the candidate is usually withdrawn by the government concerned. After the hearings, the team of 28 is then subject to an up/down ‘investiture vote’ by a simple majority of the MEPs.

As a final democratic measure, the Commission as a whole can be REMOVED by a two-thirds ‘censure vote’ in the European Parliament. This has never happened before, but in 1999 the Santer Commission resigned before a censure vote was due to be taken which they were likely to lose. So, yes, the Commission is not DIRECTLY elected. But it is not strictly true to say that it is ‘unelected’ or UNACCOUNTABLE.

Ironically, the way the Commission is now chosen is similar to the way the UK government is formed. Neither the British Prime Minister nor the British cabinet are ‘directly elected’. Formally, in House of Commons elections, we do not vote on the choice for the Prime Minister, but rather vote for individual MPs from different parties. Then, by convention, the Queen chooses the leader of the largest party in the House of Commons to form a government. This is rather like the European Council choosing the candidate of the political group with the most seats in the European Parliament to become the Commission President.

And anyway, after the UK Prime Minister is chosen, he or she is free to choose his or her cabinet ministers. There are NO hearings of individual ministerial nominees before committees of the House of Commons, and there is NO formal investiture vote in the government as a whole. From this perspective, the Commissioners and the Commission are more scrutinised and MORE accountable than British cabinet ministers.

So there you have it.

EU laws and lawmakers are wholly democratically accountable and people who voted leave under the guise of "no democratic accountability" are misinformed at best. Wilfully ignorant at worst.

I'm done with arguing with Brexit thickos about this shit. This is the LAST TIME. I shall just go back name calling and ignoring now.

It's much less effort.

 

[vegster]

I think the basic problem with this sovereignty bollocks is that it's very easy to find EU directives that have improved the lives of British people, yet somewhat harder to find the detrimental ones.

As evidenced EVERY TIME when we ask a Brexiter the question "please list the EU laws that you disagree with". Which brings me back to the original point. Many of the EU directives forced upon the government directly enhance the lives of the British people, yet the British people are cutting themselves off from this for reasons of: "Principles! Mah SOVERINTY! etc".

It's shit.

The EU directive outlawing mobile telephone roaming charges is another good example of the system working for the people. Vodafone,EE, Three and the others were only to pleased to stitch us for extra costs whenever we landed in France.

They finally fell in to line and somehow their businesses have not collapsed since being forced to abandon the extra charges. Of course, this little victory will disappear in March 2019 or two years later most probably.

 

[vegster]

Back scratching and arm twisting is why something like the EU will never really work. The fact is different nations have different interests, and that in a nutshell is why nations are better off being independent but voluntarily cooperative with one another, rather than being in a back scratching arm twisting club.

How do you think our Parliament works in order to get a vote or a law passed? There are sweeteners for disaffected MP's or the strong arm tactics of The Whips.

It's a trade off which is exactly why some EU laws take ages to make it to the statute book thanks to concessions and trade offs.... We actually have representation in the EU however Mr Farage and his UKIP group would either take no part in debate or just insult it's members.

 

[Pretty Plnk Fairy]

You tobys are all the same we want our country back understand? you want example of brussels telling us what to do?One word, bendy bananas

regards
DR

 

[Klaas]

You tobys are all the same we want our country back understand? you want example of brussels telling us what to do?One word, bendy bananas

regards
DR

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Which EU laws that we have been subject to don't you like?

Not even close to an exhaustive list but ...

I don't like that we don't have comete control over our VAT rates
I don't like that we don't have control over our fisheries policy
I don't like that we don't have control over animal cruelty policy
I don't like that we don't control over who comes into our country
I don't like that there is a court that can overule British courts
I don't like that we can't do trade deals with other countries ourselves directly

EDIT - should have thrown in that I object the EU forces us to display prices in grams and kilos. If a trader wants to sell apples measured in barrels only then let them.

 

[daveinprague]

Not even close to an exhaustive list but ...

I don't like that we don't have comete control over our VAT rates
I don't like that we don't have control over our fisheries policy
I don't like that we don't have control over animal cruelty policy
I don't like that we don't control over who comes into our country
I don't like that there is a court that can overule British courts
I don't like that we can't do trade deals with other countries ourselves directly

Well, just for your first example
EU rules mean the UK cannot reduce VAT on goods and services below 15%, the standard rate of VAT in the EU. The standard rate of VAT in the UK is 20%

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Well, just for your first example
EU rules mean the UK cannot reduce VAT on goods and services below 15%, the standard rate of VAT in the EU. The standard rate of VAT in the UK is 20%

It also means we can't remove vat from items and services. So for example, we can't remove the disgusting 8.5% VAT on gas and electricity. We either keep it as is or hike it to 15% minimum. Sanitry products is another example. Tax policy should only be controlled by a national government not the EU.

 

[daveinprague]

It also means we can't remove vat from items and services. So for example, we can't remove the disgusting 8.5% VAT on gas and electricity. We either keep it as is or hike it to 15% minimum. Sanitry products is another example. Tax policy should only be controlled by a national government not the EU.

The fact that our VAT is higher than the EU's suggests to me, the UK does have control. Sanitry products, is something that has been mentioned more than once by the EU as something that will be changing. Who put the disgusting 8.5% VAT on gas and electricty? I dont even see 8.5? I see the figure of 5%, where you getting that figure from?


http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-35834142

 

[Berty23]

Not even close to an exhaustive list but ...

I don't like that we don't have comete control over our VAT rates
I don't like that we don't have control over our fisheries policy
I don't like that we don't have control over animal cruelty policy
I don't like that we don't control over who comes into our country
I don't like that there is a court that can overule British courts
I don't like that we can't do trade deals with other countries ourselves directly

EDIT - should have thrown in that I object the EU forces us to display prices in grams and kilos. If a trader wants to sell apples measured in barrels only then let them.

Someone else hasn't dismantled the issue re VAT.

May I ask which part of fisheries policy you don't like? I find it slightly amusing that Grimsby asking for special deal.

What is your particular dislike over animal cruelty? We can treat animals better than the minimum standard and unless you want to be cruel to animals then I don't see the issue.

We decided not to put some controls in place in 2004 with A8 countries and we have growing immigration from outside the EU which we can control. We see record levels of employment and research shows that immigrants contribute more than they take. Can I ask what you would change about immigration?

I understand people with issues about European court but that is one of the costs of being part of a far more powerful group than we ever could be on ourselves.

Trade deals - do you think we will get better deals on our own? I am pretty sure it is common for company abuse to give bulk buy discounts and we all know that big customers get preferential treatment to smaller customers. By leaving we effectively make all the small countries in the EU bigger customers than us. Who do you want a trade deal with by the way?

Re displaying prices....I suspect this is the REAL issue. Like it really matters that prices should be easily understood. It is a weird British obsession with imperial.

 

[Garry Nelson's teacher]

So another day, another opportunity for our PM to rise above the petty point-scoring and show us the Way Forward. I'm actually looking forward to it, but it does rather worry me that I'm turning into one of those folk who used to attend public hangings.
But let's give the lady a chance.................................Prepare to be seriously unimpressed.

 

[The Clamp]

YOU seem odd to me ........

I am genuinely glad that I do.

 

[The Clamp]

Not even close to an exhaustive list but ...

I don't like that we don't have comete control over our VAT rates
I don't like that we don't have control over our fisheries policy
I don't like that we don't have control over animal cruelty policy
I don't like that we don't control over who comes into our country
I don't like that there is a court that can overule British courts
I don't like that we can't do trade deals with other countries ourselves directly

EDIT - should have thrown in that I object the EU forces us to display prices in grams and kilos. If a trader wants to sell apples measured in barrels only then let them.

I asked you which laws, not the results of those laws. If you don't even know which laws and legislation you claim not to like, there's not much hope in a sensible answer from you.

 

[BigGully]

So, when you drive to Europe you are fine with driving on the right hand side of the road as everyone else does ? but surely your " Self determination " is being stifled when you do this. However you go along with it and drive on the right, when you get back to Blighty you go back to driving on the left seamlessly. This seems very much like the scene from the Life of Brian when Judith rushes in to the meeting and says " Something is actually happening !!!" and Reg says " She's right, New agenda ! remove all previous resolutions from the list, this calls for immediate debate ". Principles are marvellous in their range and diversity but no one person can have their personal principles and not have them stomp on someone else's. That's why the rule of law is so difficult and so hard to standardise.

This is what we are up against, I mean he actually wrote this, gold

 

[Dave the OAP]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43251320

Did someone say we are hoping for free trade agreements with the us? Is all of this banking on the US propping up the trade we may lose out from the Euro zone?

Sounds like the fascists left wing pinko commies BBC fake news to me.