[Politics] Brexit

[dingodan]

I think you're full of shit. I'll help you out here.....Here is a law forced on us by the EU that you can object to.....

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/jul/19/charges-paying-card-banned-flights-tax-bills

There was an EU directive that "All extra charges added to payments for goods and services made by card are to be outlawed, ending a “rip-off” that costs Britons hundreds of millions of pounds a year"

What complete and utter SHITHEADS eh? So as I understand it you object to this directive, in principle, because despite it ending years of CC charge abuse to British consumers it didn't originate IN BRITAIN. Have I got this right?

I personally don't give a shit where a law comes from if it immediately improves my quality of life. No more CC charges eh? Fecking GREAT! Good one EU! But there are people in this country apparently who object to their lives being improved by EU directives because "it's the principal of the thing".

Well I put it to you that your "principals" are a load of shit.

Just my opinion like.

Thanks for being abusive, there's really no need.

That law sounds great, so pass it through our parliament, but don't use the excuse that because the EU passed a good law we should want to be subject to all of their laws without recourse.

You obviously haven't read my other posts, I don't care what the particular law is, maybe it's a good law, maybe it's a bad one. If it's good we should want it, if it's bad we shouldn't, but it starts with us deciding these matters for ourselves.

 

[Mental Lental]

I don't care what the particular law is, maybe it's a good law, maybe it's a bad one. If it's good we should want it, if it's bad we shouldn't, but it starts with us deciding these matters for ourselves.

But the British government had their piggy snouts in this particular trough for years. They made NO decision to abolish CC charges. They had to do it because of an EU directive.

The British people made a decision to "decide the matter for themselves" when they repeatedly elected governments who allowed these CC charges to continue for years. The EU noticed this and forced the UK government to stop ripping off the people of the UK.

Let's make it simple. DO YOU OBJECT TO THIS?

 

[dingodan]

But the British government had their piggy snouts in this particular trough for years. They made NO decision to abolish CC charges. They had to do it because of an EU directive.

The British people made a decision to "decide the matter for themselves" when they repeatedly elected governments who allowed these CC charges to continue for years. The EU noticed this and forced the UK government to stop ripping off the people of the UK.

Let's make it simple. DO YOU OBJECT TO THIS?

Well, to be honest a CC company are free to charge what they want (assuming no fraud or dishonesty), and people can choose to accept the terms and use the card or not if they want, but that's another matter.

Let's just say for the sake of argument that no, I don't object to that law.

Aha! So I must be in favor of us being subject to EU law then! You got me!

 

[Mental Lental]

Well, to be honest a CC company are free to charge what they want (assuming no fraud or dishonesty), and people can choose to accept the terms and use the card or not if they want, but that's another matter.

Let's just say for the sake of argument that no, I don't object to that law.

Aha! So I must be in favor of us being subject to EU law then! You got me!

I think the basic problem with this sovereignty bollocks is that it's very easy to find EU directives that have improved the lives of British people, yet somewhat harder to find the detrimental ones.

As evidenced EVERY TIME when we ask a Brexiter the question "please list the EU laws that you disagree with". Which brings me back to the original point. Many of the EU directives forced upon the government directly enhance the lives of the British people, yet the British people are cutting themselves off from this for reasons of: "Principles! Mah SOVERINTY! etc".

It's shit.

 

[dingodan]

I think the basic problem with this sovereignty bollocks is that it's very easy to find EU directives that have improved the lives of British people, yet somewhat harder to find the detrimental ones.

As evidenced EVERY TIME when we ask a Brexiter the question "please list the EU laws that you disagree with". Which brings me back to the original point. Many of the EU directives forced upon the government directly enhance the lives of the British people, yet the British people are cutting themselves off from this for reasons of: "Principles! Mah SOVERINTY! etc".

It's shit.

I think the issue is that people would rather that we pass laws ourselves, and we can elect representatives (or kick them out) in order to ensure that we control the way our country is run.

You've asked me about an EU law I might agree with, but what if there was an EU law that you disagreed with? At least if there is an EU law which is good we could always lobby for it to be passed in this country, what would your approach be to dealing with an EU law which you considered to be bad? Imagine in 15 years time we have an ultra right wing EU commission and they want to pass laws protecting CC companies and their CC charges? What would your approach be to dealing with that?

 

[LlcoolJ]

I think the issue is that people would rather that we pass laws ourselves, and we can elect representatives (or kick them out) in order to ensure that we control the way our country is run.

You've asked me about an EU law I might agree with, but what if there was an EU law that you disagreed with? At least if there is an EU law which is good we could always lobby for it to be passed in this country, what would your approach be to dealing with an EU law which you considered to be bad? Imagine in 15 years time we have an ultra right wing EU commission and they want to pass laws protecting CC companies and their CC charges? What would your approach be to dealing with that?

Well done for quoting a post and then not answering ANY of the points the same post raised. Maybe you should go on Question Time. Amazing stuff.

 

[Mental Lental]

I think the issue is that people would rather that we pass laws ourselves, and we can elect representatives (or kick them out) in order to ensure that we control the way our country is run.

You've asked me about an EU law I might agree with, but what if there was an EU law that you disagreed with? At least if there is an EU law which is good we could always lobby for it to be passed in this country, what would your approach be to dealing with an EU law which you considered to be bad? Imagine in 15 years time we have an ultra right wing EU commission and they want to pass laws protecting CC companies and their CC charges? What would your approach be to dealing with that?

It's amazing how I regularly find myself playing devil's advocate with seemingly "sensible" Brexiteers because they are either too thick or lazy to do it for themselves..... I tell you what I'll find you a law.........

Here we go:

http://bruegel.org/2016/02/child-benefits-for-eu-migrants-in-the-uk/

I don't like this one. I think it's a bit cheeky. But I'm ready to accept the rough with the smooth when you consider the benefits gained from many other EU laws. Such as this one:

http://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=706&langId=en&intPageId=205

So I'm willing to accept the law about Child Benefit even though I don't like it because the EU's laws on working conditions provide the people of the UK with far better conditions than they had under any of the previous British governments.

Your ultra right wing EU commission hypothesis belays another thing I can't quite understand regarding the very few amount of sensible Brexiteers on here that seem to able to string a few coherent sentences together. How have you come to the conclusion that there's going to be a future evil right wing EU 4th Reich holding power over the UK? Even if it's hypothetical it still makes no sense to vote yourself out of the EU and all those working benefits because of what MIGHT happen in the future. IF this evil right wing EU government forms then THAT'S THE TIME FOR A REFERENDUM on leaving the EU. Not at this time when the vast majority of EU directives improve our daily lives.

You really want a government of the UK to have the power to abolish the Working Time Directive? Because that's what you're going to get.

 

[Baldseagull]

Seriously?

My belief in self determination does not mean I get to do whatever I want, it means the UK can make it the law that in the UK I must drive on one side of the road, and France can make it the law that in France I must drive on the other. I believe in the rights of the peoples of the UK and France to make their own laws, and I must respect both if I am in their country. I'm surprised I needed to explain that to be honest.

"Wait till Biggus Dickus hears of this!"

How about if the people of Surrey wanted to drive on the other side of the road, would you welcome their right to self determination, on principle, or think it a bloody stupid idea?

 

[dingodan]

Well done for quoting a post and then not answering ANY of the points the same post raised. Maybe you should go on Question Time. Amazing stuff.

I've answered the same question about 6 times already.

If there wasn't one EU law which I disagreed with, it wouldn't make any difference. I'm not interested in the merits or ills of this or that law, it's irrelevant to the question of whether we should govern ourselves or be governed by someone else.

 

[dingodan]

How about if the people of Surrey wanted to drive on the other side of the road, would you welcome their right to self determination, on principle, or think it a bloody stupid idea?

Respecting the right of self determination and thinking an idea bloody stupid are not mutually exclusive.

 

[Baldseagull]

I think the issue is that people would rather that we pass laws ourselves, and we can elect representatives (or kick them out) in order to ensure that we control the way our country is run.

You've asked me about an EU law I might agree with, but what if there was an EU law that you disagreed with? At least if there is an EU law which is good we could always lobby for it to be passed in this country, what would your approach be to dealing with an EU law which you considered to be bad? Imagine in 15 years time we have an ultra right wing EU commission and they want to pass laws protecting CC companies and their CC charges? What would your approach be to dealing with that?

Lobby my MP to bring it up in our Parliament, to make sure our representative on the EU council, the Prime Minister, was aware, lobby my MEP's for the South East.

 

[dingodan]

It's amazing how I regularly find myself playing devil's advocate with seemingly "sensible" Brexiteers because they are either too thick or lazy to do it for themselves..... I tell you what I'll find you a law.........

Here we go:

http://bruegel.org/2016/02/child-benefits-for-eu-migrants-in-the-uk/

I don't like this one. I think it's a bit cheeky. But I'm ready to accept the rough with the smooth when you consider the benefits gained from many other EU laws. Such as this one:

http://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=706&langId=en&intPageId=205

So I'm willing to accept the law about Child Benefit even though I don't like it because the EU's laws on working conditions provide the people of the UK with far better conditions than they had under any of the previous British governments.

Your ultra right wing EU commission hypothesis belays another thing I can't quite understand regarding the very few amount of sensible Brexiteers on here that seem to able to string a few coherent sentences together. How have you come to the conclusion that there's going to be a future evil right wing EU 4th Reich holding power over the UK? Even if it's hypothetical it still makes no sense to vote yourself out of the EU and all those working benefits because of what MIGHT happen in the future. IF this evil right wing EU government forms then THAT'S THE TIME FOR A REFERENDUM on leaving the EU. Not at this time when the vast majority of EU directives improve our daily lives.

You really want a government of the UK to have the power to abolish the Working Time Directive? Because that's what you're going to get.

If you are against a government having the power to abolish the working time directive, you currently have 2 options. a) A UK government which you are able to vote for or against having that power. b) An EU government which you have no vote or influence over having that power. You are looking at who you think is in favor of what right now. I am looking at who ultimately has power over what in the long term.

I wasn't saying what was going to happen in 15 years, none of us know. I was trying to get you to consider what you would want to do if faced with a situation you were strongly apposed to. Your answer seems to be that you would then want to vote to leave the EU.

I guess you can understand the position of those who voted leave after all then.

 

[Baldseagull]

Respecting the right of self determination and thinking an idea bloody stupid are not mutually exclusive.

I guess not, but Surrey does not have these powers, the UK Parliament has, at what level should the right to self determination stop? If we take it right down to the smallest possible, every man is his own king in his own castle, and no one comes round to pick the bins up. Some level of collective "us" for some level of authority makes sense, unless you are an anarchist.

 

[dingodan]

Lobby my MP to bring it up in our Parliament, to make sure our representative on the EU council, the Prime Minister, was aware, lobby my MEP's for the South East.

We've been down that road before, our PM no less went to the EU to try to make changes.

Their response, "No".

What would your next move be?

 

[Mental Lental]

If you are against a government having the power to abolish the working time directive, you currently have 2 options. a) A UK government which you are able to vote for or against having that power. b) An EU government which you have no vote or influence over having that power. You are looking at who you think is in favor of what right now. I am looking at who ultimately has power over what in the long term.

I wasn't saying what was going to happen in 15 years, none of us know. I was trying to get you to consider what you would want to do if faced with a situation you were strongly apposed to. Your answer seems to be that you would then want to vote to leave the EU.

I guess you can understand the position of those who voted leave after all then.

I gave a specific example of a situation whereby I would vote out of the EU. That being a hypothetical right wing EU government forcing detrimental laws on the British people. Right now I think the laws of the EU are mostly positive so I don't think it is the time to vote out. Which the UK has always had the power to do. And will still have the power to do so should this 4th Reich emerge.

We're gonna go round in circles again I can see it already. Clearly you think that this fascistic evil EU government already exists which leads us back to that original question. "What particular EU laws do you disagree with"? We are at an impasse here.

 

[dingodan]

I guess not, but Surrey does not have these powers, the UK Parliament has, at what level should the right to self determination stop? If we take it right down to the smallest possible, every man is his own king in his own castle, and no one comes round to pick the bins up. Some level of collective "us" for some level of authority makes sense, unless you are an anarchist.

I have no idea where you are going with this, first, I'm not an anarchist, second, people don't collect our bins because they are denied a right of self determination. I'm talking about self determination of a peoples (or a nation), I believe in individual liberty, but within the law, which incidentally also believes in individual liberty.

 

[dingodan]

I gave a specific example of a situation whereby I would vote out of the EU. That being a hypothetical right wing EU government forcing detrimental laws on the British people. Right now I think the laws of the EU are mostly positive so I don't think it is the time to vote out. Which the UK has always had the power to do. And will still have the power to do so should this 4th Reich emerge.

We're gonna go round in circles again I can see it already. Clearly you think that this fascistic evil EU government already exists which leads us back to that original question. "What particular EU laws do you disagree with"? We are at an impasse here.

You're putting words in my mouth, don't say "clearly" and then tell me what I think. I don't think the EU government is fascist or evil, I think it makes laws which we have to abide by without democratic accountability.

We are going around in circles because you refuse to accept, that while you may not agree that democratic accountability is important in the making and enforcing of law, to believe that it is important is a perfectly reasonable and understandable position.

 

[Baldseagull]

We've been down that road before, our PM no less went to the EU to try to make changes.

Their response, "No".

What would your next move be?

Our PM did what most other PM's have done, went to the EU and said, those rules of yours are all well and good for the rest of EU, but we wan't something different. He was not asking for a change in the EU, he was asking for a special deal for Britain. What he should have done is gone to the council, and got support for EU wide changes.
This has been our major problem with the EU, every PM wants to go into battle with it and gain some concession or other to claim a victory at home, or blame the EU for their failure to effect change that was possible in other ways.
We would have got so much more out of it if we played the same way as they do on the continent, a bit of back scratching here and there and consensus rather than opposition. If we had done some back scratching, supported other members when something important to them, but of small consequence to us was up, we would get our back scratched when it's really itching.

 

[dingodan]

Our PM did what most other PM's have done, went to the EU and said, those rules of yours are all well and good for the rest of EU, but we wan't something different. He was not asking for a change in the EU, he was asking for a special deal for Britain. What he should have done is gone to the council, and got support for EU wide changes.
This has been our major problem with the EU, every PM wants to go into battle with it and gain some concession or other to claim a victory at home, or blame the EU for their failure to effect change that was possible in other ways.
We would have got so much more out of it if we played the same way as they do on the continent, a bit of back scratching here and there and consensus rather than opposition. If we had done some back scratching, supported other members when something important to them, but of small consequence to us was up, we would get our back scratched when it's really itching.

Back scratching and arm twisting is why something like the EU will never really work. The fact is different nations have different interests, and that in a nutshell is why nations are better off being independent but voluntarily cooperative with one another, rather than being in a back scratching arm twisting club.

 

[Baldseagull]

I have no idea where you are going with this, first, I'm not an anarchist, second, people don't collect our bins because they are denied a right of self determination. I'm talking about self determination of a peoples (or a nation), I believe in individual liberty, but within the law, which incidentally also believes in individual liberty.

My point was, that we can divide ourselves into ever smaller groups, as different to others, and claim the right to self determination, but that eventually we would end up as individuals with no societal support.