[Politics] Brexit

[Westdene Seagull]

An interesting and absolutely central conversation going on here.

For me, the issue is finding the appropriate level for decisions to be made.

For example, I would like my parish council to have more power so that I, as a villager, could have more influence over - say - planning decisions. At a level above, the responsibilities of district, county or unitary authorities needs looking at so that local people are more likely to participate in their processes.

Other decisions, involving things such as education, defence and social policy perhaps, are properly made in Westminster, Edinburgh, Cardiff or Stormont.

As the decision-making level rises, so the influence of the individual voter inevitably reduces. That’s a given - as a village parishioner I am obviously able to influence things more than I am as an English voter. (That would still be true even if we had a half-decent national voting system.)

People do not generally worry about this. Remainers and Leavers alike accept it.

Where the division happens is when we go beyond Westminster. Remainers are generally relaxed that the straight line described above continues - that policies affecting a group of like-minded and friendly nations are made at a level beyond. Naturally the level of individual influence continues to reduce, but only in the same way as it has since we left the parish council offices behind. There is no change of principle.

Leavers, on the other hand, become concerned when that final level is reached. They are relaxed as the process of increasing power and reducing influence rises from village and ward to town and city and onwards to the streets of London, but become alarmed at the last stage in the continuum.

They think it is different. As a Remainer I don’t think it is, apart from the fact that our neighbours are involved. I have no problem with that. Leavers do. That is one big difference between us.

A great unbiased post. To add to it, UK national policy of the last couple of decades has been to devolve more power downwards - closer to the voters. Hence elected mayors and devolved national governments for Wales, NI and Scotland - it gives voters more power and helps exclude the more extreme elements. The EU on the other hand have always been for travelling in the other direction - more centralisation and control. With the USA as the exception, most centralisation comes under intense pressure to hand down more powers - examples include Spain, France, many countries in Eastern Europe and of course the USSR.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Why do the EU have such an obsession with standardising everything ?

Well personally, I find it easier to see if Nestle, Unilever etc are trying to rip me off when everything is priced metrically. I have always struggled comparing 500g of bananas for £1.50, 1lb of bananas for £1 10s 6d or 3 bendy bananas for 6 groats. Particularly when buying internationally on the internet, but maybe that's just me

*edit* And before anyone picks up on it, I don't buy my bananas on the internet

 

[Lincoln Imp]

A great unbiased post. To add to it, UK national policy of the last couple of decades has been to devolve more power downwards - closer to the voters. Hence elected mayors and devolved national governments for Wales, NI and Scotland - it gives voters more power and helps exclude the more extreme elements. The EU on the other hand have always been for travelling in the other direction - more centralisation and control. With the USA as the exception, most centralisation comes under intense pressure to hand down more powers - examples include Spain, France, many countries in Eastern Europe and of course the USSR.

I'd say that the EU is hugely decentralised, as indeed it should be. We are national states after all. I don't think power is devolved anywhere nearly enough in the UK and I believe it is seen as one of the more centralised nations in Europe. And then of course there's our voting system!

 

[vegster]

Lots of soundbites but zero substance. Basically, same old ****, different day.

I'm sure it will down really well with some of The Brexiteers though, who'll be fist pumping and spinning things more furiously than Shane Warne at The SCG as if some substantial progress has been made. They do like their speeches.

According to 5Live the speech will have to be given in the Mansion House as they can't get her and the journo's up to the original venue in Scotland or the north of England due to the weather, I feel sorry for those that get bussed in to try to make an audience up, poor sods. As you say, lots of soundbites and generalisim's but no solutions and no clear positions.... other than aspirations... " Closest ever ever co-operation " blah blah.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

A great unbiased post. To add to it, UK national policy of the last couple of decades has been to devolve more power downwards - closer to the voters. Hence elected mayors and devolved national governments for Wales, NI and Scotland - it gives voters more power and helps exclude the more extreme elements. The EU on the other hand have always been for travelling in the other direction - more centralisation and control. With the USA as the exception, most centralisation comes under intense pressure to hand down more powers - examples include Spain, France, many countries in Eastern Europe and of course the USSR.

Indeed, every treaty signed = more centralisation and less control in nation states. I am all for cooperating with our European friends and Allies in the many areas where we have common cause but this is still possible without having an overarching political project that continually draws powers away from the UK. A project which unfortunately has caused immense economic difficulties for southern Europe and helped increase support for extreme political parties across numerous member states.

 

[The Clamp]

Says the person that NEVER actually answers any question put to him.

Textbook deflection. Point of fact, for all my flaws I will answer any relevant question put to me. It's not my problem if you don't like the answers.

 

[Titanic]

Textbook deflection. Point of fact, for all my flaws I will pick and choose whether I answer any question put to me. It's not my problem if you don't like the answers.

Fixed for you

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Textbook deflection. Point of fact, for all my flaws I will answer any relevant question put to me. It's not my problem if you don't like the answers.

OK, it matters not if I know the exact law in question - I know what we can and can't do due to them. Equally I don't know which specific UK law prevents me going over 70mph on a motorway, or which one stops me giving a public official an incentive to pick me as a supplier or which one means my car can't be clamped on private land ( well actually I do know the last one ). Even if I did I couldn't quote the exact section. Neither can you for laws you don't like - or more specifically consequences you don't like resulting from laws. It's a ridiculous argument but we've come to expect that from you and your lying - i.e. your post #45282.

 

[The Clamp]

Standard.

 

[ManOfSussex]

Fixed for you

Have you got your G&T, Smoked salmon canapes and red, white and blue bunting ready for Theresa May's speech?

 

[Titanic]

Have you got your G&T, Smoked salmon canapes and red, white and blue bunting ready for Theresa May's speech?

I'm not expecting anything very exciting.... basically Florence II.

 

[ManOfSussex]

I'm not expecting anything very exciting.... basically Florence II.

Yes. If it's from The Mansion House it's going to get confusing for future reference with the other Mansion House Speech. It'll be like The Police Academy films - we won't know which one's which. I suppose this one could be 'Mansion House 2: Back in training.'

 

[CHAPPERS]

A cross-party group of MPs today urge the Prime Minister to either explain how she will meet the six promises she and her ministers have made about future UK-EU trade, or admit that they cannot all be delivered.

In an open letter coordinated by Open Britain, Vince Cable MP, Chuka Umunna MP and Caroline Lucas MP highlight the following promises, quoting key commitments made by Theresa May and her ministers since the referendum:



The “exact same benefits” as today
No hard border on the island of Ireland or across the UK
Fully negotiated by March 2019
No payment for access to the EU market
A complete end to EU rules and regulations
Continuation of all EU trade deals and new deals ready to come into force



The open letter cites key claims in support of each promise, such as David Davis' commitment that the deal “will deliver the exact same benefits as we have”; Theresa May’s promise in December that the future relationship would be negotiated in “as little as 18 months”; Downing Street’s pledge that “we will not be paying for market access”; and Theresa May’s claim that “free movement will end in March 2019.”

The MPs say that these are the promises against which the Prime Minister’s speech today must be judged, and warn that if she backs away from them “everybody has the right to ask whether the reality of Brexit matches up to what has been promised.”



In the open letter, Vince Cable MP, Chuka Umunna MP and Caroline Lucas MP, all leading supporters of Open Britain, write:

“You have been Prime Minister for more than a year and a half and yet it has taken you until today to explain to the public in any detail what you believe the future relationship between the UK and the EU should look like.

“It was your decision to rule out membership of the Single Market and the Customs Union, yet you and the Brexit Secretary have also promised to retain all the benefits of membership. You must know that this is not realistic.

“We have grave doubts as to whether these six promises can be delivered, and we do not believe they are all desirable. But they are the commitments against which your speech today will be judged. If you back away from them everybody has the right to ask whether the reality of Brexit matches up to what has been promised.

“The time for deceptive rhetoric and outlandish promises is now over. There are only two options today: you must explain to the British public how you will deliver the promises you have made, or come clean that the Brexit you and your ministers have promised is not feasible.”

Seems reasonable. Won't happen though.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Yes. If it's from The Mansion House it's going to get confusing for future reference with the other Mansion House Speech. It'll be like The Police Academy films - we won't know which one's which. I suppose this one could be 'Mansion House 2: Back in training.'

If it's mainly about immigrants I suppose it could be called "Mansion House Polish".

I'm off now.

 

[vegster]

I'm not expecting anything very exciting.... basically Florence II.

"Time for Bed " , said Zebedee.... yawn.

 

[dingodan]

Key word being INITIATE. A Commission proposal only becomes law if it is approved by both a qualified-majority in the EU Council and a simple majority in the European Parliament. They can initiate all the crazy laws they like. They won't become laws unless passed by the democratically elected European parliament.

Please explain how your disgust for an unelected Commission, with only the power to SUGGEST laws, leads you to believe that the UK is better off out of whole union. A union which has passed laws like The Working Time directive, which has provided substantial improvements to quality of life for the British people.

The EU Parliament also cannot initiate laws, so the EU Commission don't just suggest laws, if anything is to be considered it must come not from members of parliament but from the Commission. The Commission can also overrule the decisions of the EU Parliament.

It's a parliament for show, not in practice.

 

[dingodan]

An interesting and absolutely central conversation going on here.

For me, the issue is finding the appropriate level for decisions to be made.

For example, I would like my parish council to have more power so that I, as a villager, could have more influence over - say - planning decisions. At a level above, the responsibilities of district, county or unitary authorities needs looking at so that local people are more likely to participate in their processes.

Other decisions, involving things such as education, defence and social policy perhaps, are properly made in Westminster, Edinburgh, Cardiff or Stormont.

As the decision-making level rises, so the influence of the individual voter inevitably reduces. That’s a given - as a village parishioner I am obviously able to influence things more than I am as an English voter. (That would still be true even if we had a half-decent national voting system.)

People do not generally worry about this. Remainers and Leavers alike accept it.

Where the division happens is when we go beyond Westminster. Remainers are generally relaxed that the straight line described above continues - that policies affecting a group of like-minded and friendly nations are made at a level beyond. Naturally the level of individual influence continues to reduce, but only in the same way as it has since we left the parish council offices behind. There is no change of principle.

Leavers, on the other hand, become concerned when that final level is reached. They are relaxed as the process of increasing power and reducing influence rises from village and ward to town and city and onwards to the streets of London, but become alarmed at the last stage in the continuum.

They think it is different. As a Remainer I don’t think it is, apart from the fact that our neighbours are involved. I have no problem with that. Leavers do. That is one big difference between us.

Well the difference is that it leaves the jurisdiction of our country, and we go from various forms of democratic accountability to none. This continuum you are speaking of has something of a "step change" in it, to be fair.

 

[Titanic]

Brace yourselves for "a lot of detail and some hard truths" apparently.

 

[Titanic]

Boris has apparently been 'snowed in' in Budapest

 

[WATFORD zero]

Well let's see what they have managed to come up with, given the last 20 months to prepare this