[Politics] Brexit

[Herr Tubthumper]

Yep, seems not to understand the difference between debt and deficit. Typical illiterate socialist economics. Blame the Tories for total debt increasing, yet at the same time oppose any attempt to reduce Govt expenditure.

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Illiterate?....take a look at your first sentence.

 

[portslade seagull]

Illiterate?....take a look at your first sentence.

Is that all you've got. Let's hope Everton are the same. Off in a while to get the train. UTA

 

[portslade seagull]

Except that’s not true. There was a sharp increase in national debt after the taxpayer shouldered the financial crash for bankers in 2008. But since the Conservatives took power in 2010, there has been a steady increase in government borrowing and the UK national debt has increased by over £555bn.

I think you will find that was because they were trying to patch up the abortion which was the last Labour government. You could've had no extra spending and experienced real hardship like the Greeks, but you would probably moaned about that as well

 

[midnight_rendezvous]

So do you agree with increasing Govt spending and therefore increasing Govt debt, or reducing Govt debt through austerity, or as some might call it, attempting to live within your means as a country ? I'm confused as you seem to be against both options

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The problem with this pro-austerity narrative that the Tories are interested in "living within our means" is that it is totally contradicted by their inept economic record. The Tories came to power in 2010 promising that their austerity agenda would completely eliminate the budget deficit within five years. They spectacularly failed to achieve this primary objective, but instead of holding them to account for this extraordinary failure, people like yourself and the Rivet seem happy to let them completely off the hook before the 2015 General Election by allowing them to reframe their abject failure to eliminate the deficit as some kind of brilliant success by endlessly repeating guff like "we've cut the deficit by a third"!

 

[portslade seagull]

The problem with this pro-austerity narrative that the Tories are interested in "living within our means" is that it is totally contradicted by their inept economic record. The Tories came to power in 2010 promising that their austerity agenda would completely eliminate the budget deficit within five years. They spectacularly failed to achieve this primary objective, but instead of holding them to account for this extraordinary failure, people like yourself and the Rivet seem happy to let them completely off the hook before the 2015 General Election by allowing them to reframe their abject failure to eliminate the deficit as some kind of brilliant success by endlessly repeating guff like "we've cut the deficit by a third"!

Ok let's ask you this. How much would it have been cut under Labour. Or how much would it have increased which it would've done

 

[midnight_rendezvous]

I think you will find that was because they were trying to patch up the abortion which was the last Labour government. You could've had no extra spending and experienced real hardship like the Greeks, but you would probably moaned about that as well

Real hardship? Aside from overseeing the longest sustained decline in wages in economic history, a reduction in earning power (only matched by the crisis stricken Greek economy), a huge upwards redistribution of wealth, and the slowest economic recovery on record?

 

[crookie]

The problem with this pro-austerity narrative that the Tories are interested in "living within our means" is that it is totally contradicted by their inept economic record. The Tories came to power in 2010 promising that their austerity agenda would completely eliminate the budget deficit within five years. They spectacularly failed to achieve this primary objective, but instead of holding them to account for this extraordinary failure, people like yourself and the Rivet seem happy to let them completely off the hook before the 2015 General Election by allowing them to reframe their abject failure to eliminate the deficit as some kind of brilliant success by endlessly repeating guff like "we've cut the deficit by a third"!

It is arguable that we haven't actually had any austerity at all.
https://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/total_chart_gallery

If we could barely balance the books in the boom years before the crash, we have no chance now. Can we really afford the level of state spending we have at the levels of tax we are prepared to pay ? I have said several times, we really do need a genuine debate on this, that has been ducked for years. The Tories pretend we can eliminate the deficit with a little trimming round the edges and without significant tax rises. Labour believe we should spend lots more and the only people who will have to pay for it will be big business and the rich, ie not me or you. Both positions are patently dishonest, and i think it's very sad that we can't have a grown up debate on tax and spend in this country.

I am not a Tory by the way !!

 

[midnight_rendezvous]

Ok let's ask you this. How much would it have been cut under Labour. Or how much would it have increased which it would've done

I’m not saying that if Labour retained government in 2010 life would all milk and honey. It is entirely possible to see the failing of the Labour economic policy pre 2010 AND the Conservative economic policy since. But posing such hypotheticals is redundant as we will never know the answer. We can only guess. It just seems like a way to avoid what actually HAS happened.

 

[midnight_rendezvous]

It is arguable that we haven't actually had any austerity at all.
https://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/total_chart_gallery

If we could barely balance the books in the boom years before the crash, we have no chance now. Can we really afford the level of state spending we have at the levels of tax we are prepared to pay ? I have said several times, we really do need a genuine debate on this, that has been ducked for years. The Tories pretend we can eliminate the deficit with a little trimming round the edges and without significant tax rises. Labour believe we should spend lots more and the only people who will have to pay for it will be big business and the rich, ie not me or you. Both positions are patently dishonest, and i think it's very sad that we can't have a grown up debate on tax and spend in this country.

I am not a Tory by the way !!

You want a grown up debate but earlier you claimed my views were socialist illiteracy The idea of slashing investment and crushing down economic demand with the worst wage slump in recorded history in order to hand vast tax giveaways to the tiny super-rich minority looks like an absolutely awful idea, but somehow this has been presented as the Tory "long-term economic plan", and somehow millions of people have been conned into believing that there is no alternative to doing things this way.

 

[crookie]

You want a grown up debate but earlier you claimed my views were socialist illiteracy

Fair point, I apologise.

 

[WATFORD zero]

I love the arguments on here about the in-fighting in the Tory party, what Jeremy Corbyn would do if he got in etc etc.The situation we are currently in cannot be rescued by Theresa May, Amber Rudd, Jeremy Corbyn, Boris Johnson, Tony Blair coming back from retirement or Maggie Thatcher coming back from beyond.

You may remember Universal Benefits being the Big thing prior to Brexit. As the biggest project the civil service has been running for the last 4 years, they have managed to roll it out to 10% (about 600,000 people) of the required population and it is beset by errors and problems leading to discussion about whether to hold the rollout until these are resolved.

This is the same organisation which is going to rollout all of the changes created by Brexit in the next 18 months (3.5 years for those who believe the implementation period). None of these changes have yet been agreed meaning no work can commence on them. Even a WTO 'no deal' will need to be implemented.

Whatever your political alliances, surely a little common sense will tell you that there are huge issues staring us in the face. The Government (whoever that consists of !) will have to fudge. The timescales which are currently being talked about are ridiculous

 

[Garry Nelson's teacher]

Had to giggle today when I saw a clip from an interview with Chris Grayling. His response to the issue of significant raises in the price of food following a no-deal Brexit was to say that we should grow more in the UK. Notwithstanding the difficulty of growing citrus fruit in Norfolk, it did occur that should we go down this route and it was somehow successful (dig for victory, part 2!) there'd be another post-Brexit reality to present a challenge: there'd be no-one to pick it.
I know there's something called 'Project Fear' but this is 'Project Fantasy'?

 

[BigGully]

Had to giggle today when I saw a clip from an interview with Chris Grayling. His response to the issue of significant raises in the price of food following a no-deal Brexit was to say that we should grow more in the UK. Notwithstanding the difficulty of growing citrus fruit in Norfolk, it did occur that should we go down this route and it was somehow successful (dig for victory, part 2!) there'd be another post-Brexit reality to present a challenge: there'd be no-one to pick it.
I know there's something called 'Project Fear' but this is 'Project Fantasy'?

Makes me giggle how you could even begin to think that our own supply of fruit and vegetables will somehow become unviable after Brexit, if I was a European producer I might be a little concern if they become unable to supply our market at a price that our consumers could bear, but of course you struggle to contemplate that citrus fruits aren't climatically exclusive to Spain, France or any other sunny EU country, there are other countries beyond the EU borders that would be keen to tap into the UK's market if the EU couldn't supply.

As a UK consumer I wouldnt worry but as an EU supplier I would expect some real challenges as UK supermarkets demand those products at prices the UK consumer can bear, otherwise they will look elsewhere.

While we are here it was KMPG when analysing Spains exports of over 2 billion euros of fruit and vegetables of the UK and the internal effects for Spain due to Brexit and concluded that British countries will turn to locally produced goods, so giggle all you want.

https://elpais.com/elpais/2016/11/02/inenglish/1478076634_140712.html

% of fresh fruit exporters by country to the UK (albeit 2012), where in these figures do you expect this fruity Armageddon to come from after Brexit ??

Spain 16%
South Africa 9%
Costa Rica 8%
Columbia 7%
Netherlands 6%
Dom Republic 6%
France 5%
Equador 4%
Brazil 4%
Chile 2%
Turkey 2%
Italy 2%
Germany 2%
Egypt 2%
Belize 2%
Ivory Coast 2%
Cameroon 2%
R.O.W 18%

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Makes me giggle how you could even begin to think that our own supply of fruit and vegetables will somehow become unviable after Brexit, if I was a European producer I might be a little concern if they become unable to supply our market at a price that our consumers could bear, but of course you struggle to contemplate that citrus fruits aren't climatically exclusive to Spain, France or any other sunny EU country, there are other countries beyond the EU borders that would be keen to tap into the UK's market if the EU couldn't supply.

As a UK consumer I wouldnt worry but as an EU supplier I would expect some real challenges as UK supermarkets demand those products at prices the UK consumer can bear, otherwise they will look elsewhere.

While we are here it was KMPG when analysing Spains exports of over 2 billion euros of fruit and vegetables of the UK and the internal effects for Spain due to Brexit and concluded that British countries will turn to locally produced goods, so giggle all you want.

https://elpais.com/elpais/2016/11/02/inenglish/1478076634_140712.html

% of fresh fruit exporters by country to the UK (albeit 2012), where in these figures do you expect this fruity Armageddon to come from after Brexit ??

Spain 16%
South Africa 9%
Costa Rica 8%
Columbia 7%
Netherlands 6%
Dom Republic 6%
France 5%
Equador 4%
Brazil 4%
Chile 2%
Turkey 2%
Italy 2%
Germany 2%
Egypt 2%
Belize 2%
Ivory Coast 2%
Cameroon 2%
R.O.W 18%

I thought that the point being made was that the fact we can currently obtain the fruit in question without any tariffs has a downward effect on prevailing prices, even when the fruit in question originates from outside the EU. Elsewhere, Sainsbury's were this morning predicting a 22 percent price increase in foodstuffs imported from the EU in the event of no-deal.

 

[portslade seagull]

I thought that the point being made was that the fact we can currently obtain the fruit in question without any tariffs has a downward effect on prevailing prices, even when the fruit in question originates from outside the EU. Elsewhere, Sainsbury's were this morning predicting a 22 percent price increase in foodstuffs imported from the EU in the event of no-deal.

Easy don't import from the EU. Plenty of other traders will step in

 

[BigGully]

I thought that the point being made was that the fact we can currently obtain the fruit in question without any tariffs has a downward effect on prevailing prices, even when the fruit in question originates from outside the EU. Elsewhere, Sainsbury's were this morning predicting a 22 percent price increase in foodstuffs imported from the EU in the event of no-deal.

Well if you were Sainsburys what would you do, or more to the point if you were Sainsburys supplier what would you do, I can tell you if Sainsburys increase their prices on foodstuffs by 22% they would be out of business by next year, the other supermarkets must be licking their lips, look at the list of countries outside of the EU that export to the UK, do you think South Africa, Costa Rica or Dom Republic might be able to produce oranges and lemons at a competitive price to say Spain, I am guessing yes.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Well if you were Sainsburys what would you do, or more to the point if you were Sainsburys supplier what would you do, I can tell you if Sainsburys increase their prices on foodstuffs by 22% they would be out of business by next year, the other supermarkets must be licking their lips, look at the list of countries outside of the EU that export to the UK, do you think South Africa, Costa Rica or Dom Republic might be able to produce oranges and lemons at a competitive price to say Spain, I am guessing yes.

Sainsbury's forecast was with regard to the price of foodstuffs in general, not just those sold by themselves.

I agree that oranges from Costa Rica might be competitive with those from Spain if both were subject to tariffs. However, I'd guess that oranges imported without tariffs would be cheaper still.

 

[The Rivet]

Sainsbury's forecast was with regard to the price of foodstuffs in general, not just those sold by themselves.

I agree that oranges from Costa Rica might be competitive with those from Spain if both were subject to tariffs. However, I'd guess that oranges imported without tariffs would be cheaper still.

A typical side shift of the liberal lefty Vicky Pollard school of point scoring.

 

[ManOfSussex]

I do so enjoy your alcohol fuelled late night considered contributions.

Yes, but in the morning Sir, I shall be sober. You, you'll still be a Conservative and Unionist Brexit voting Miss Marple Britain Ideologue with a framed polished photo of John Redwood, with a knowing smile on his face, sat on your bedside cabinet. Sir.

The problem people like you have is you have no comprehension, none whatsoever, over the gathering storm there is in this country. Brexit, Austerity...........they don't effect you. As for Universal Credit............I've claimed JSA, ESA and have done voluntary administrative work for The CAB in my time, at various points over the years, to help fellow people at the bottom and know a thing-or-two about it. You?.............Universal Credit hasn't even tickled the ribs yet of what its going to do and once it hits Support Group long term ESA claimants and completely ****s over housing benefit claimants nationwide by exacerbating the housing crisis in this country and then hurts long-term mental and physical health sufferers who claim.......Time bomb. You don't have a clue, let alone care. This is why Sir John Major is warning you, but you don't listen. To paraphrase another man with white hair and a beard - You can't win. Strike them down and Jeremy Corbyn will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine...................

 

[CHAPPERS]

Sweet.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...lions-revised-figures-reveal-uk-490bn-poorer/

I wonder if this will be discussed over the dinner tonight.