[Politics] Brexit

[Baldseagull]

No, it's not even a possibility. What it is is one of the most inane babblings on Project Fear. No 'agreement' is necessary. Thousands of Brits (and other EU nationals) live and work in countries outside the EU, and thousands more citizens of countries outside the EU live and work in the EU. There are no bi-lateral or multi-national 'agreements' in place to let this happen. They are not needed. And people lived and worked in foreign countries long before the EU even existed (although obviously not too much - international travel wasn't so easy back then.
So please, all you frightened remainers, get this bit of Project Fear propaganda out of your heads. Repatriation of foreign nationals wont even be anywhere near the negotiating table. Won't be discussed. Won't be mooted. Won't happen. Get it?
You might want to argue about what does 'Brexit means Brexit' means - argue all day and al night if you want - but let's get this very clear. Brexit does not mean some sort of ethnic cleansing.

You really think the rights of EU citizens living and working in Britain is not going to change, if we end free movement of people, and that the changes will not require anyone to return to the EU? Or any Brits to return to the UK?
Of course some agreement is needed, if there is no automatic right for EU citizens to come and work in the UK, those already here will either be subject to the same rules and will not be able to work without permit, or have some special status bestowed upon them, likewise for Brits in the EU. I think it unlikely that we will see large scale repatriation, but you really cannot rule it out, as May herself has said.

 

[studio150]

Why do you keep on about freedom of movement, when what you're really beefing about - and worrying unnecessarily about - is freedom of staying still! I'll say it again, for those of you still under the thrall of project fear, repatriation of foreign citizens who are currently living and working in a country not their own isn't on the cards.

And what does my last sentence say,

 

[Baldseagull]

I'm not really sure why Wakefield voted Leave. There is an argument though that the increases in inequality in recent decades is a consequence of deliberate trickle down economics. The south east has boomed because of an asset price squeeze caused by excess demand. Encouragement of provision of financial services (which has a large EU workforce) and tax breaks for private equity capital have distorted our regional economies further. Inequality has massively increased beyond a socially acceptable level and the EU is one of the influences on this process. I would argue that in part it can be attributed to Mrs Thatcher's/John Major's Governments support for the development of a single European market. We are now seeing these distortions all over Europe with some rich areas getting richer and other poor areas getting poorer. There really isn't much wealth trickling
down to the likes of Greece etc and perhaps also Wakefield.
I certainly don't think inequality will fall under a Tory Government but I also don't think it
would fall whilst members of a single market.

It sounds as though you are in favour of some sort of redistribution of wealth, take from the rich and give to the poor type stuff?

 

[knocky1]

Here's to the Austrian Greens on f****** Hoffer off.

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

A simple answer would be *my personal choice,that were you in the UK before or on the day of the referendum,you are permitted to stay,subject to normal controls and so forth.

But so they stay as freedom of movement is retained, or do they stay under grandfather rights, or do they need to apply for and pay for a work visa, and if so how long is the work visa valid for.

Given that one of the longed for needs for leavers is controlled immigration then the issue of existing migrants is a valid one, and we still have no idea on what basis they will stay under. Clearly if a visa system is imposed for staying into the future, then some may be rejected.

Personally I would expect those here after a set date would have grandfather rights.

The reason why there is no decision on migrants rights is the EU have refused to discuss it until Article 50 is triggered.What a surprise!

Why do you keep on about freedom of movement, when what you're really beefing about - and worrying unnecessarily about - is freedom of staying still! I'll say it again, for those of you still under the thrall of project fear, repatriation of foreign citizens who are currently living and working in a country not their own isn't on the cards.

welcome to the mad house..

 

[Baldseagull]

So when you said "The whole male population seemed to be built for door work" you weren't stereotyping then.

On your other point about Turkey's voting for Christmas (Poor/ JAM's voting for Brexit) I note since the Referendum, Cameron and Osborne ... the High Priests of Austerity have gone as has the target to run a surplus. Voting Remain = keeping them in place.

Yes, I was stereotyping the average man as having a thick neck and a build reminiscent of a nightclub doorman.

The target to run a surplus has gone because of the extra borrowing Brexit has caused and will cause, and the loss of revenues and growth. However, the cuts that were made to facilitate it are still there. Getting into surplus and paying down national debt is not something I am against, though I think the time frame was too short. Wouldn't it be nice if we could leave a lesser tax burden on our children and grandchildren, rather than heaping it up for them.
It is strange that many of the people who suffered and are suffering from the cuts in services and the pay freezes, made in order to get our country back in the black, were willing to take us deeper into the red, into recession and an unknown period of economic gloominess and extra borrowing, to get our country back.

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

It is strange that many of the people who suffered and are suffering from the cuts in services and the pay freezes, made in order to get our country back in the black, were willing to take us deeper into the red, into recession and an unknown period of economic gloominess and extra borrowing, to get our country back.

Sounds like a Labour Party pledge....every election

 

[Baldseagull]

What a shame.Wakefield has a very nice Opera House,but I suppose someone with your prejudices cannot imagine culture existing anywhere north of Islington.And you would appear to come from the biggest slum in Sussex!

No it doesn't, it has a bang average Theatre, which I have also visited.
The area I reside in is not so pretty as many sussex towns, and is a bit rough round the edges, but I like it here.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

It sounds as though you are in favour of some sort of redistribution of wealth, take from the rich and give to the poor type stuff?

Yes I am as I think it essential for social cohesion. I think it important that the wealthy are taxed as they benefit from the security created by a strong society. A lot more of our resources need to be spent on social support such as access to
education, social care and mental health support. That would give more of the poorest the tools with which to improve their lives.There is also a lot that Government could do to remove economic distortions such as tax breaks for investors and multinationals. Priority in policy should go to standards of living for the most vulnerable not propping up house prices in the south east or lining the pockets of shareholders. I could go on and on ! A lot of people will argue that the most talented will simply not bother anymore but I'm not talking about removing all incentives for success just for a recalibration of the excesses of inequality that currently exist. I find the notion that businesses would relocate to avoid their social responsibilities quite vulgar and prefer a society where we can take measures to disincentive such moves over a single European market where workers have to toe the multinational line.

 

[portslade seagull]

Yes, I was stereotyping the average man as having a thick neck and a build reminiscent of a nightclub doorman.

The target to run a surplus has gone because of the extra borrowing Brexit has caused and will cause, and the loss of revenues and growth. However, the cuts that were made to facilitate it are still there. Getting into surplus and paying down national debt is not something I am against, though I think the time frame was too short. Wouldn't it be nice if we could leave a lesser tax burden on our children and grandchildren, rather than heaping it up for them.
It is strange that many of the people who suffered and are suffering from the cuts in services and the pay freezes, made in order to get our country back in the black, were willing to take us deeper into the red, into recession and an unknown period of economic gloominess and extra borrowing, to get our country back.

A National debt that is not helped by uncontrolled immigration. This affects all walks of life schools, hospitals, NHS, housing and so on

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

No it doesn't, it has a bang average Theatre, which I have also visited.
The area I reside in is not so pretty as many sussex towns, and is a bit rough round the edges, but I like it here.

Broadfield or Langley? tbf i like Crawley but it has it's areas,much like anywhere..

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

A National debt that is not helped by uncontrolled immigration. This affects all walks of life schools, hospitals, NHS, housing and so on

Remember Crawley does not have a Hospital..... when talking to our Crawley friend.

 

[Baldseagull]

I am sorry why does it mean pubs? Given where your location is I am not really sure you have the right to look down on anyone.

I think you will find the thick necks are there are a lot of people that work out in the area, and as others have said it is a rugby league heartland so there will be as many men the pubs playing rugby as there are playing saturday/sunday league down here, but as a much more physical sport you need to be built compared to someone playing football

To be fair, a night out in any town mostly means pubs, but what do you do on a night out in Wakey? Thanks for confirming the thick neck phenomenon seen in Wakefield.

 

[The Merry Prankster]

Yes I am as I think it essential for social cohesion. I think it important that the wealthy are taxed as they benefit from the security created by a strong society. A lot more of our resources need to be spent on social support such as access to
education, social care and mental health support. That would give more of the poorest the tools with which to improve their lives.There is also a lot that Government could do to remove economic distortions such as tax breaks for investors and multinationals. Priority in policy should go to standards of living for the most vulnerable not propping up house prices in the south east or lining the pockets of shareholders. I could go on and on ! A lot of people will argue that the most talented will simply not bother anymore but I'm not talking about removing all incentives for success just for a recalibration of the excesses of inequality that currently exist. I find the notion that businesses would relocate to avoid their social responsibilities quite vulgar and prefer a society where we can take measures to disincentive such moves over a single European market where workers have to toe the multinational line.

Stop it. I don't come on NSC for sensible, reasoned and balance discussion like this.

 

[Baldseagull]

You make think so but it is rife, especially in this part of the country, I have come across more than enough people in the South East that say they are on the side of the working class yet say they would never have gone down a pit as that is for someone lower down in society than them, even if they are considered as working class as you get in this part of the country.

That by the way is not all but would cover many people

I have met plenty of people also who have said they would not work down a pit, but never as a snobbish comment, just a comment on the dangerous and unpleasant working environment.

 

[nicko31]

A National debt that is not helped by uncontrolled immigration. This affects all walks of life schools, hospitals, NHS, housing and so on

Incredible statement is you consider where the countries finances are heading under Brexit.

 

[Baldseagull]

Why do you keep on about freedom of movement, when what you're really beefing about - and worrying unnecessarily about - is freedom of staying still! I'll say it again, for those of you still under the thrall of project fear, repatriation of foreign citizens who are currently living and working in a country not their own isn't on the cards.

What about those in retirement? What will be the status of those in work, if they lose their jobs? Will those people in work be able to look for another job without applying for a permit?
I am not expecting an answer to these questions from yourself, and I think the fact that May has said she cannot give any assurances regarding a right to remain, rather undermines your position that it is not on the table.

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

Incredible statement is you consider where the countries finances are heading under Brexit.

uncontrolled? that was the key point........since this thread started nearly 300,000 more people will be in the UK,that puts pressure on with immediate effect,not all will contribute straight away..some a little,some never.

 

[nicko31]

Perhaps Wakefield is aware of the line sold by the Tories that enriching the wealthy would lead to benefits for the rest through trickle down economics. This was the Reagan administrations plan in the 80s and it presented itself over here with the South East becoming richer on the back of inflated asset prices and a never ending supply of cheap EU Labour. Now London and other wealthy middle class areas are squealing because the rest of the country has had enough of this ever increasing inequality. If anyone becomes poorer it is unlikely to be those already left behind.

For the well off a weak pound and increasing inflation means a holiday in the Dordogne instead of the St. Lucia, for the poor it will be the difference of whether to keeping the heating on.

I wish you were right that pulling up the draw bridge will solve the inequality, sadly its a lot more complicated than that and Europe is just a scapegoat. You don't make the poor richer by making the whole country poorer, where is the world has that happened?

 

[Baldseagull]

Yes I am as I think it essential for social cohesion. I think it important that the wealthy are taxed as they benefit from the security created by a strong society. A lot more of our resources need to be spent on social support such as access to
education, social care and mental health support. That would give more of the poorest the tools with which to improve their lives.There is also a lot that Government could do to remove economic distortions such as tax breaks for investors and multinationals. Priority in policy should go to standards of living for the most vulnerable not propping up house prices in the south east or lining the pockets of shareholders. I could go on and on ! A lot of people will argue that the most talented will simply not bother anymore but I'm not talking about removing all incentives for success just for a recalibration of the excesses of inequality that currently exist. I find the notion that businesses would relocate to avoid their social responsibilities quite vulgar and prefer a society where we can take measures to disincentive such moves over a single European market where workers have to toe the multinational line.

Excellent! We have some common ground, but can you tell me why this belief, that the wealthiest should contribute the most to central funds, for the benefit of the less well off, breaks down when it comes to Britain, one of the wealthiest nations, making contributions to the EU so that it may fund improvements in less well off nations?
Is it not equally selfish and vulgar for the UK to pursue a course where we seek to have as many benefits as we can get from the EU, whilst refusing EU citizens opportunity here, seek to pay as little as possible to EU central funds and want to not be bound by the rules they have for preventing nations trying to give themselves commercial advantage?