[Politics] Brexit

[smeg]

The majority voted for Brexit and we are rightly going ahead with it.

Who is We in this equation? The incumbent government have been tasked with Brexit, something that barely three people can agree on. Fundamentally it's become a battle ground between the Left, Right and Liberalism and it will be like winning the lottery statistically if your particular flavour of Brexit emerges as the victor.

 

[alfredmizen]

The majority voted for Brexit and we are rightly going ahead with it. I am completely on board with that and am genuinely interested in what we are going to get as a result of that vote. And I am somewhat surprised that there have been 23K posts, some highly vociferous, on something which none of us (including the government, as you rightly pointed out) have the slightest idea about.

And i know i've added to it

I cant believe this thread is still going

 

[WATFORD zero]

Who is We in this equation? The incumbent government have been tasked with Brexit, something that barely three people can agree on. Fundamentally it's become a battle ground between the Left, Right and Liberalism and it will be like winning the lottery statistically if your particular flavour of Brexit emerges as the victor.

We = the electorate. And i agree with you completely that no-one knows what we (the electorate!) voted for and what we will get.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

The majority voted for Brexit and we are rightly going ahead with it. I am completely on board with that and am genuinely interested in what we are going to get as a result of that vote. And I am somewhat surprised that there have been 23K posts, some highly vociferous, on something which none of us (including the government, as you rightly pointed out) have the slightest idea about.

And i know i've added to it

Something none of us have the slightest idea about.....this covers 90% of this site and not just this thread

 

[5ways]

I don't call a 23k majority a clear Lib constituency

There is not much difference between a Tory like Goldsmith and a Lib Dem except on Europe, they attract a similar sort of metropolitan and well-off liberal. He was punished for the wrong view in a very pro-EU area.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Something none of us have the slightest idea about.....this covers 90% of this site and not just this thread

Case proven M'lud. I'm out

 

[vegster]

It's all I need to do - you're the one who's desperately clinging to Project Fear.

Er ? Why would I or anyone else WANT to cling to the mythical Project Fear ?

Call it Project Austerity and you will be closer to the truth.

Maybe you should have a long look at yourself and think " How will my life on a personal level be affected by Brexit ? " Will you be personally better off or worse financially ? For instance does your company buy in raw materials and export to and from Europe, how will potential tariffs and changes in the value of the Pound affect that ? Is your company a subsidiary of a European company and if so, will they still see the British market as viable after Brexit ?

If and when we move in to recession early next year after our Christmas last hurrah, how will that affect your earning potential bearing in mind that uncertainty and recession leads to wage and recruitment freezes ? Do you travel abroad and how will things change for you if you find that you may well get 30% less for your Pound abroad and you have to pay more for flights and pay for visa's ? Do you really think that the money saved upon leaving the EU will actually find it's way back to you on a local level either in improved health services or local public services and infrastructure ?

Do you have a pension scheme and have you ever looked at the projections of your final pension ? you will see that they usually give projections based on performance above inflation by say, 2/4/6 % . There is of course, the caveat that " The value of Stocks and Bonds may go down as well as up " and that you can secure a better final projection by increasing your contribution.. But, who amongst us can afford to up their contributions and do you think that your final projection will end up at the high end projection ? Bear in mind the small print which states the pension operators fees which they receive regardless of performance

This is where we stand at the moment, we have been promised a marvellous future based on hope and over inflated expectations yet it will be the ordinary people who will pay the price and see no positive change at the end.

 

[smeg]

We = the electorate. And i agree with you completely that no-one knows what we (the electorate!) voted for and what we will get.

So why would you want to go ahead with that, it sounds like a shambles to me. If having a vote and that particular vote going your way makes you the winner regardless of what you ultimately get, how is that a good outcome. The elite will still get richer but it's us who will pay for this change, lower wages, austerity, higher prices at the pumps and in the shops where we buy imported goods. Pensions affected, travel premiums and ultimately inflation.

 

[Pavilionaire]

Great for the Lib Dems but Richmond is about as clear a Lib Dem constituency as you're likely to find. 72% voted remain!

I don't agree with that. A 23,000 majority for the Tories is massive and Richmond is not a safe Lib Dem seat by any stretch.

 

[Pavilionaire]

What politicians from all sides have completely miscalculated is the extent to which having the EU Referendum has polarised voters.

Brexit is the biggest issue that has faced voter in more than 40 years and people are likely to ignore standard party political policy and vote for whichever party mirrors their views on Brexit and immigration. This is good for UKIP, Lib Dems and SNP that are clear on the issue but bad news for Tory and Labour.

Voters are used to changes in government every four or five years and, in practice, very little changes from one party to the other, but Brexit gets people passionate because it affects the economy, social and racial issues and most aspects of daily life. I honestly can't see the rift being healed in the next decade, indeed I don't think half of the Tory party ever got over our entering the EEC in the first place and that was over 40 years ago.

 

[studio150]

Er ? Why would I or anyone else WANT to cling to the mythical Project Fear ?

Call it Project Austerity and you will be closer to the truth.

Maybe you should have a long look at yourself and think " How will my life on a personal level be affected by Brexit ? " Will you be personally better off or worse financially ? For instance does your company buy in raw materials and export to and from Europe, how will potential tariffs and changes in the value of the Pound affect that ? Is your company a subsidiary of a European company and if so, will they still see the British market as viable after Brexit ?

If and when we move in to recession early next year after our Christmas last hurrah, how will that affect your earning potential bearing in mind that uncertainty and recession leads to wage and recruitment freezes ? Do you travel abroad and how will things change for you if you find that you may well get 30% less for your Pound abroad and you have to pay more for flights and pay for visa's ? Do you really think that the money saved upon leaving the EU will actually find it's way back to you on a local level either in improved health services or local public services and infrastructure ?

Do you have a pension scheme and have you ever looked at the projections of your final pension ? you will see that they usually give projections based on performance above inflation by say, 2/4/6 % . There is of course, the caveat that " The value of Stocks and Bonds may go down as well as up " and that you can secure a better final projection by increasing your contribution.. But, who amongst us can afford to up their contributions and do you think that your final projection will end up at the high end projection ? Bear in mind the small print which states the pension operators fees which they receive regardless of performance

This is where we stand at the moment, we have been promised a marvellous future based on hope and over inflated expectations yet it will be the ordinary people who will pay the price and see no positive change at the end.

This is the reality we are in, but you forgot that you're not allowed to say any of this, because we've got our country back and any cost is acceptable or that.
And we get leavers quoting headlines and saying what wonderful news that deals are being made now, but failing to look under the headlines and actually see that 83% of the manufacturing will be done in India and 100% of the assembly will be the USA.

And we now get the Farming community saying they want tariff free access to the single market but want to limit exposure to cheaper imported foods. So bad news for the UK consumer.

 

[studio150]

What politicians from all sides have completely miscalculated is the extent to which having the EU Referendum has polarised voters.

Brexit is the biggest issue that has faced voter in more than 40 years and people are likely to ignore standard party political policy and vote for whichever party mirrors their views on Brexit and immigration. This is good for UKIP, Lib Dems and SNP that are clear on the issue but bad news for Tory and Labour.

Voters are used to changes in government every four or five years and, in practice, very little changes from one party to the other, but Brexit gets people passionate because it affects the economy, social and racial issues and most aspects of daily life. I honestly can't see the rift being healed in the next decade, indeed I don't think half of the Tory party ever got over our entering the EEC in the first place and that was over 40 years ago.

Very true and the next scheduled election in 2020 will be after the exit (if the 2 year timetable is adhered to) with the effects very much fresh in the mind. The Best Deal for Britain may not be the best deal for the individual voter. Rather than listening to future policies I can see the voters only being concerned about how the political party shaped up during the pre exodus period

 

[Pavilionaire]

Very true and the next scheduled election in 2020 will be after the exit (if the 2 year timetable is adhered to) with the effects very much fresh in the mind. The Best Deal for Britain may not be the best deal for the individual voter. Rather than listening to future policies I can see the voters only being concerned about how the political party shaped up during the pre exodus period

There's a lot of rhetoric from the Brexit side about Europe being on the brink of collapse and getting out now before the EU ship sinks is a good thing, but I think that fails to recognise the deep-rooted desire to have an over-arching pan-European body connecting countries together.

Whatever happens with Brexit this EU is not going anywhere - it IS going to be punished for failing to get to grips with the subject of immigration and will have a couple of turbulent years as domestic European politics shifts to the right as a result, but the EU is a fundamentally good concept in terms of promoting peace, business, human rights and social justice.

 

[Soulman]

There's a lot of rhetoric from the Brexit side about Europe being on the brink of collapse and getting out now before the EU ship sinks is a good thing, but I think that fails to recognise the deep-rooted desire to have an over-arching pan-European body connecting countries together.

Whatever happens with Brexit this EU is not going anywhere - it IS going to be punished for failing to get to grips with the subject of immigration and will have a couple of turbulent years as domestic European politics shifts to the right as a result, but the EU is a fundamentally good concept in terms of promoting peace, business, human rights and social justice.

Very romantic but we shall see. I think a few other countries are getting itchy feet.

 

[The Rivet]

There's a lot of rhetoric from the Brexit side about Europe being on the brink of collapse and getting out now before the EU ship sinks is a good thing, but I think that fails to recognise the deep-rooted desire to have an over-arching pan-European body connecting countries together.

Whatever happens with Brexit this EU is not going anywhere - it IS going to be punished for failing to get to grips with the subject of immigration and will have a couple of turbulent years as domestic European politics shifts to the right as a result, but the EU is a fundamentally good concept in terms of promoting peace, business, human rights and social justice.

Promoting human rights huh?.............read this if you want. DIRECTIVE OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL
on combating terrorism and replacing Council Framework Decision 2002/475/JHA on
combating terrorism...........the don't just want to attack REAL terrorists but 'radicals'. All vaguely worded and very worrying. The eu IS the new fourth reich. Last time this sort of initiative was used was by Hitler, enforced by his 'brown shirts' organisation in the 30's.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

This is the reality we are in, but you forgot that you're not allowed to say any of this, because we've got our country back and any cost is acceptable or that.
And we get leavers quoting headlines and saying what wonderful news that deals are being made now, but failing to look under the headlines and actually see that 83% of the manufacturing will be done in India and 100% of the assembly will be the USA.

And you're also not allowed to say any of it because raising reasonable and specific issues for debate is characterised by the hardcore as moaning and weeping and crying and wingeing. Even suggesting one form of Brexit over another is shouted down as undemocratic. And as for mentioning that huge election swing in south west London... mere straw-clutching.

Thank heavens for the elephant in the room... the poll result repeated on every page of this thread suggesting, like similar polls before it, what the balance of NSC's silent ones actually feel.

 

[Pavilionaire]

Very romantic but we shall see. I think a few other countries are getting itchy feet.

Yes, on the surface I agree that they are. But most of the 27 are also countries that stood alone in the 1940s and were picked off by either Nazi Germany or Communist Russia. Do not underestimate the inherent desire to belong to an organisation that binds them together in peace.

 

[Baldseagull]

Imagine the long term damage to our democracy if the government and opposition don't 'listen to the will of the people' after having a democratic vote.

This thread is doing a great job calling out those on NSC who do not believe in democracy.

The referendum result gave the nod to end membership of the EU, not to end all relations with the EU. Where is the democratic process in determining our future relations with the EU?
It seems to me, that it is mostly those leave supporters which hope for the most separated future relationship, that now want to skip over any democratic method for determining the UK position. This is because the PM seems to be promoting their preferred option, if it looked like she was aiming low and the leave support believed that most of Parliament would prefer a harder line, there would be more interest from your side in having the debate.
Is it just her opening negotiating stance? Perhaps she is prepared to shift quite a bit, which of course, she is free to do if she likes, if it is purely her choice on where the lines are drawn.
I understand perfectly her unwillingness to be drawn on detail or debate the issues, it not only shows some of her hand to the opposition, but sets a measure for success, which she could be seen to fail to achieve.
But to go ahead without a debate on the issues, is undemocratic, I think this is one situation that shows the imperfections of democracy, which is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.

 

[Baldseagull]

Promoting human rights huh?.............read this if you want. DIRECTIVE OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL
on combating terrorism and replacing Council Framework Decision 2002/475/JHA on
combating terrorism...........the don't just want to attack REAL terrorists but 'radicals'. All vaguely worded and very worrying. The eu IS the new fourth reich. Last time this sort of initiative was used was by Hitler, enforced by his 'brown shirts' organisation in the 30's.

He also held 3 referendums.

 

[Billy the Fish]

Yes, on the surface I agree that they are. But most of the 27 are also countries that stood alone in the 1940s and were picked off by either Nazi Germany or Communist Russia. Do not underestimate the inherent desire to belong to an organisation that binds them together in peace.

I don't think too many people would disagree with that sentiment but the question is how much power do you want that organisation to hold.

I would have no problem with an EU that exists to provide a framework of trade and cooperation between it's members, but that ship sailed a long time ago with the single currency and the Lisbon treaty.