[Politics] Brexit

[Lincoln Imp]

Promoting human rights huh?.............read this if you want. DIRECTIVE OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL
on combating terrorism and replacing Council Framework Decision 2002/475/JHA on
combating terrorism...........the don't just want to attack REAL terrorists but 'radicals'. All vaguely worded and very worrying. The eu IS the new fourth reich. Last time this sort of initiative was used was by Hitler, enforced by his 'brown shirts' organisation in the 30's.

I can understand people being worried about belonging to the EU if they think it is comparable to Nazi Germany. The worry for the rest of us is what leads people to that view (which apart from anything else seems disrespectful to those who suffered under the Nazis). I agree with anyone who says that the EU commission has become overbearing, self-regarding and micro-meddling though. It is the nature of bureaucracies the world over. One of the reasons many EU countries - Holland, the Scandinavian and Visegrad blocks, even Germany - regrets the June 23 result is that they saw the UK as the focal point of regulating this excess. Played right, our influence within the EU would have grown.

 

[Pavilionaire]

I don't think too many people would disagree with that sentiment but the question is how much power do you want that organisation to hold.

I would have no problem with an EU that exists to provide a framework of trade and cooperation between it's members, but that ship sailed a long time ago with the single currency and the Lisbon treaty.

A lot of the Brexit side want to see the EU crumble into dust and I think that opinion needs to be called out.

I think that most of Europe wants an EU that goes beyond trade and co-operation, in particular on co-ordination on environment, social justice, human rights and crime prevention. The EU's big mistake is that they don't have the facility to review their own performance, to take stock of where they've come from and the repercussions of the changes they've made.

They should have reviewed the question of how to improve external and internal border control and to tighten up the rules on migration in light of the fact population is packing into Germany and the UK but also leaving countries like Romania and Bulgaria woefully short of younger skilled workers to keep those country's economies going. They also cannot leave the Spanish, Italians and Greeks to single-handedly keep African and Asian illegal immigration at bay.

 

[symyjym]

A lot of the Brexit side want to see the EU crumble into dust and I think that opinion needs to be called out.

I think that most of Europe wants an EU that goes beyond trade and co-operation, in particular on co-ordination on environment, social justice, human rights and crime prevention. The EU's big mistake is that they don't have the facility to review their own performance, to take stock of where they've come from and the repercussions of the changes they've made.

They should have reviewed the question of how to improve external and internal border control and to tighten up the rules on migration in light of the fact population is packing into Germany and the UK but also leaving countries like Romania and Bulgaria woefully short of younger skilled workers to keep those country's economies going. They also cannot leave the Spanish, Italians and Greeks to single-handedly keep African and Asian illegal immigration at bay.

I would imagine that setting up strict borders in Europe was the problem anyway. It's a lot easier to give free movement than building a great wall of Europe, so to make it like the US that is split into states makes sense in principle. Where we are different is we have a ready built moat so the initial problem isn't applicable to us.

Clearly what is going on in the Middle East and North Africa has had an impact on this and the irony is Europe's foriegn policy has played a significant part in the mass exodus of these regions. It's all a bit Laurel and Hardy.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

And you're also not allowed to say any of it because raising reasonable and specific issues for debate is characterised by the hardcore as moaning and weeping and crying and wingeing. Even suggesting one form of Brexit over another is shouted down as undemocratic. And as for mentioning that huge election swing in south west London... mere straw-clutching.

Thank heavens for the elephant in the room... the poll result repeated on every page of this thread suggesting, like similar polls before it, what the balance of NSC's silent ones actually feel.

BULL SHIT , OUT IS OUT, AND HI HO , HI HO, OUT OF THE UNION WE GO, WITH NO SINGLE MARKET AND CONTROL OVER OUR BORDERS HI HO HI HO............. Richmond, 70% voted remain in THE REFERENDUM............... KEEP IT SENSIBLE
regards
DR

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

i would imagine that setting up strict borders in europe was the problem anyway. It's a lot easier to give free movement than building a great wall of europe, so to make it like the us that is split into states makes sense in principle. Where we are different is we have a ready built moat so the initial problem isn't applicable to us.

Clearly what is going on in the middle east and north africa has had an impact on this and the irony is europe's foriegn policy has played a significant part in the mass exodus of these regions. It's all a bit laurel and hardy.

another fine mess they've got us into
regards
DR

 

[larus]

A lot of the Brexit side want to see the EU crumble into dust and I think that opinion needs to be called out.

I think that most of Europe wants an EU that goes beyond trade and co-operation, in particular on co-ordination on environment, social justice, human rights and crime prevention. The EU's big mistake is that they don't have the facility to review their own performance, to take stock of where they've come from and the repercussions of the changes they've made.

They should have reviewed the question of how to improve external and internal border control and to tighten up the rules on migration in light of the fact population is packing into Germany and the UK but also leaving countries like Romania and Bulgaria woefully short of younger skilled workers to keep those country's economies going. They also cannot leave the Spanish, Italians and Greeks to single-handedly keep African and Asian illegal immigration at bay.

I wouldn't say that I want to see it crumble into dust; I would like the technocrats to realise that they are far removed from what a substantial number of people in different EU countries want. There is a high level of dissatisfaction with the EU as has been demonstrated by numerous opinion polls over the recent past. Coupled with this, the rise in Far Right parties due to the feelings of disenfranchisement of swathes of people.

One example of this: the EURO project. This is a complete disaster (even one of the architects of the EURO has said so). It cannot work long-term unless there are fiscal transfers which are just not going to happen. The havoc being wreaked on several southern countries in the pursuit of a technocratic ideal is criminal. Italy, Greece, Spain and Portugal all need to be out of the Euro, devalue and rebuild their economies with the ability to set fiscal and monetary policy to suit their requirements.

Another irritation is making counties carry out further referendums if they have the audacity to reject the wishes of the unelected technocrats, as per Ireland when they had to vote again to get the 'right' result.

There is a lot which is advantageous about being within the EU (security is not one of those as this is under the NATO umbrella). Consistent rules/regulations, environment, open trading yes. But the rules are not always adhered to and some policies like CAP are not fit for purpose, yet are blocked from reform.

I think the Italian vote on Sunday has the potential to cause huge waves (assuming it's a No vote). Markets cold be very interesting next week, and the health of Italian banks may quickly come back into focus.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Who is We in this equation? The incumbent government have been tasked with Brexit, something that barely three people can agree on. Fundamentally it's become a battle ground between the Left, Right and Liberalism and it will be like winning the lottery statistically if your particular flavour of Brexit emerges as the victor.

You make a very good point. Quite a few people who thought they were of the Left have probably realized they are actually Liberals in their ideology with elements of right wing thinking in their support of the capitalist European Single Market.

 

[cunning fergus]

Yes, on the surface I agree that they are. But most of the 27 are also countries that stood alone in the 1940s and were picked off by either Nazi Germany or Communist Russia. Do not underestimate the inherent desire to belong to an organisation that binds them together in peace.

What are you going on about?

Of the 27 EU countries 11 willingly fought WITH and FOR the Germans.

Of the 6 neutrals, the Govts of Sweden, and Spain actively supported to German cause, with thousands of their volunteering citizens to fight for Facism. The Irish Govt sent condolences when Hitler died and then welcomed in catholic war criminals from Croatia and Breton.

Of the Allied Govts it was not binary that their citizens were not sympathetic to the German cause, a number of the SS regiments were chocked full of French, Belgians, Dutch etc. Not forgetting Vichy France the Malisse et al.

Don't re write history, aside from arguably the Czechs only one ex EU country technically stood alone (albeit with its loyal commonwealth) against the tyranny of fascist Germany. Which is why many people would rather preference of immigration was given to (say) Gurkhas as oppose to those from historically facist countries we fought hard against to defeat.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

The referendum result gave the nod to end membership of the EU, not to end all relations with the EU. Where is the democratic process in determining our future relations with the EU?
It seems to me, that it is mostly those leave supporters which hope for the most separated future relationship, that now want to skip over any democratic method for determining the UK position. This is because the PM seems to be promoting their preferred option, if it looked like she was aiming low and the leave support believed that most of Parliament would prefer a harder line, there would be more interest from your side in having the debate.
Is it just her opening negotiating stance? Perhaps she is prepared to shift quite a bit, which of course, she is free to do if she likes, if it is purely her choice on where the lines are drawn.
I understand perfectly her unwillingness to be drawn on detail or debate the issues, it not only shows some of her hand to the opposition, but sets a measure for success, which she could be seen to fail to achieve.
But to go ahead without a debate on the issues, is undemocratic, I think this is one situation that shows the imperfections of democracy, which is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.

Of course the process should be thorough and careful. No leave supporter, except for those who want immediate severing from the EU would disagree. My comment was aimed at the previous quote which contained the line 'Apparently the government (and the Corbynistas) think that we have to "respect the will of the people".

Such a dangerous sentiment.

 

[cunning fergus]

You make a very good point. Quite a few people who thought they were of the Left have probably realized they are actually Liberals in their ideology with elements of right wing thinking in their support of the capitalist European Single Market.

Absolutely correct, anyone thinking the EU is not a Tory free market wet dream are in complete denial.

Whilst I have no doubt Govts are always in thrall to corporatists the EU is corporatist max.

Can you imagine what Corbyn and Farron would say if the Tory Govt set up something like the ERT for the UK?

http://www.ert.eu/

This kind of access to law makers is outrageous, the fact that unions support the EU when it is in the pocket of global capitalism is nothing short of a disgrace.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

Yes, because a complicated withdrawal and renegotiation of countless rules ,regulations and treaties , not to mention brinkmanship from both sides is likely to be knocked up on the back of a fag packet after a few months isn't it ? You're just criticising for the sake of it , if there were signs an agreement were starting to take place you'd say it was being rushed, grow up.

That is true but there is little point in saying it. Both sides are very entrenched which is probably a reflection of feelings across the country. This thread is now nothing more than posturing and refutation from both sides. I am trying to give up on it but it keeps near the top of the board so it's hard.

 

[GT49er]

... the poll result repeated on every page of this thread suggesting, like similar polls before it, what the balance of NSC's silent ones actually feel.

Can't see much relevance of the NSC poll to the discussion on here - 62% don't think the PM knows what she's doing, but that 62% will be made up of remainers and leavers, quite possibly in roughly equal numbers. Similarly there will be both remainers and leavers who think she knows exactly what she's doing (although for some that will be seen as a bad thing).

 

[smeg]

What are you going on about?

Of the 27 EU countries 11 willingly fought WITH and FOR the Germans.

Of the 6 neutrals, the Govts of Sweden, and Spain actively supported to German cause, with thousands of their volunteering citizens to fight for Facism. The Irish Govt sent condolences when Hitler died and then welcomed in catholic war criminals from Croatia and Breton.

Of the Allied Govts it was not binary that their citizens were not sympathetic to the German cause, a number of the SS regiments were chocked full of French, Belgians, Dutch etc. Not forgetting Vichy France the Malisse et al.

Don't re write history, aside from arguably the Czechs only one ex EU country technically stood alone (albeit with its loyal commonwealth) against the tyranny of fascist Germany. Which is why many people would rather preference of immigration was given to (say) Gurkhas as oppose to those from historically facist countries we fought hard against to defeat.

While you were at it, you forgot to mention our Royal Family and their dubious support of Hitler

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

While you were at it, you forgot to mention our Royal Family and their dubious support of Hitler [emoji106]

It was dubious. But hardly comparable to countries joining in and siding with Germany.

 

[vegster]

Can't see much relevance of the NSC poll to the discussion on here - 62% don't think the PM knows what she's doing, but that 62% will be made up of remainers and leavers, quite possibly in roughly equal numbers. Similarly there will be both remainers and leavers who think she knows exactly what she's doing (although for some that will be seen as a bad thing).

Very poor performance so far, no discernible policies just a soundbite ambition to get " Capitalism to work for those left behind " . Performance at PMQ's pretty poor too against a weak opposition, no control of her Ministers who seem to be leaking what they want. Not even important enough for the annual EU Christmas dinner. Looks awkward when questioned...like she has been promoted above her ability.

 

[deletebeepbeepbeep]

Can't see much relevance of the NSC poll to the discussion on here - 62% don't think the PM knows what she's doing, but that 62% will be made up of remainers and leavers, quite possibly in roughly equal numbers. Similarly there will be both remainers and leavers who think she knows exactly what she's doing (although for some that will be seen as a bad thing).

The fact that Boris is a FOOL doesn't help.

Also the fact they have doubled the national debt to 2 trillion despite Osborne's austerity, all financial targets have been missed. Plus Hammond's complete failure to address the social care and NHS crisis during his autumn statement.

Three MPs have quit under May's stewardship.

You have to be wilfully ignorant to think that the Tories are doing a good job on anything other than crippling public services.

I honestly struggle to believe how any reasonable tory voter believes they are are performing well.

 

[smeg]

It was dubious. But hardly comparable to countries joining in and siding with Germany.

Indeed, no real need to join in though is there when you are pretty comfortable with the outcome either way.

Following the First World War, the royal family changed its name from Saxe-Coburg-Gotha to Windsor to distract attention from its German heritage.

Family members of Prince Philip, who is from the house of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glucksburg, were unabashed supporters of Hitler and the Nazis.

Brother-in-law, Prince Christoph of Hesse, was a member of the SS. He piloted fighters that attacked allied troops in Italy.

Several weeks before Germany invaded Poland King George VI and his wife, the late Queen Mother, sent Hitler a birthday greeting.

“I never thought Hitler was such a bad chap,” said George’s brother, the former King Edward VIII, who became the Duke of Windsor after abdicating in 1936. Edward made this remark in 1970 when it was widely known that Hitler and the Nazis had directly and indirectly killed more than 40 million civilians and soldiers. The Nazis planned to install the Duke as leader after a successful conquest of Britain. The former head of British naval intelligence said Hitler “would soon be in this country, but that there was no reason to worry about it because he would bring the Duke of Windsor over as king.”

Other royals were also connected to the Nazis. Baron Gunther von Reibnitz, the father of Princess Michael of Kent, was a party member and an honorary member of the SS. The brother of Princess Alice was a Nazi who claimed Hitler had done a “wonderful job.” Charles Edward was placed under house arrest after the war for his Nazi sympathies. He was sentenced by a denazification court, heavily fined and almost bankrupted.

 

[studio150]

What are you going on about?

Of the 27 EU countries 11 willingly fought WITH and FOR the Germans.

Italy, Slovakia, Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria and ?

 

[Gwylan]

What are you going on about?

Of the 27 EU countries 11 willingly fought WITH and FOR the Germans.

Of the 6 neutrals, the Govts of Sweden, and Spain actively supported to German cause, with thousands of their volunteering citizens to fight for Facism. The Irish Govt sent condolences when Hitler died and then welcomed in catholic war criminals from Croatia and Breton.

Of the Allied Govts it was not binary that their citizens were not sympathetic to the German cause, a number of the SS regiments were chocked full of French, Belgians, Dutch etc. Not forgetting Vichy France the Malisse et al.

Don't re write history, aside from arguably the Czechs only one ex EU country technically stood alone (albeit with its loyal commonwealth) against the tyranny of fascist Germany. Which is why many people would rather preference of immigration was given to (say) Gurkhas as oppose to those from historically facist countries we fought hard against to defeat.

You're normally quite sound on the EU but this is just bonkers. France, Belgium, Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, Poland and Czechoslovakia were invaded, they scarcely fought with the Germans. Yes, there were people who supported the Nazis, yes, there were people who fought with them but there weren't tens of thousands of French in SS regiments. The UK has Nazi sympathisers too: we had Oswald Moseley and William Joyce; there was a British regiment in the SS (set up by the son of a Conservative politician, no less) should we deemed as supporting the Nazis too?

France and the UK have similar populations but French losses in the war were almost 50% more than the British ones.

Ireland was officially neutral but 12,000 Irishmen volunteered for the Allied Forces - that's a lot of people from a small country.

The point is that every European country had people who both supported the Allied Forces and the Axis powers. But when it comes to government support, there were only five countries on the other side: Germany, Italy, Austria, Croatia and Hungary (you could argue Spain did all it could to help) and of these, Croatia and Italy went the other way during the war. To say that the likes of France and Netherlands were supporters of Nazi Germany is highly simplified rewriting of history

 

[Baldseagull]

Of course the process should be thorough and careful. No leave supporter, except for those who want immediate severing from the EU would disagree. My comment was aimed at the previous quote which contained the line 'Apparently the government (and the Corbynistas) think that we have to "respect the will of the people".

Such a dangerous sentiment.

You have abridged his comment , he added "regardless of the damage it will do to the country".
You also said "This thread is doing a great job calling out those on NSC who do not believe in democracy." I assumed you were referring to those on the remain side, who do not believe enacting the result of the referendum is the right thing to do, or that ending membership of the EU need not bring about control of immigration, absolute sovereignty or an end to payments to the EU.
My comment was made to bring to your attention that some on your side of the fence, are advocating to bypass democracy, if it brings about the result they want.